Anchored by the Classic Learning Test

Mystie Winckler on the Secrets to a Convivial Education

September 07, 2023 Classic Learning Test
Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
Mystie Winckler on the Secrets to a Convivial Education
Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Anchored, Kimberly is joined by Mystie Winckler, writer of the Simply Convivial blog and podcast, cohost of the Scholé Sisters’ blog, and author of “The Convivial Homeschool.” Mystie takes Kimberly through her journey to deciding on a homeschool education with a classical emphasis. The two discuss the pressures on homeschool moms to assert expertise in all areas before taking on the role of a teacher and the importance of these moms being encouraged to learn alongside their children. In the midst of this learning, the two also consider the value of struggle in demonstrating repentance, maturity, and sanctification to their children and the profound festivity that can be present in a convivial homeschool. 

Today’s episode of Anchored is brought to you with support from America’s Christian Credit Union. Find out how ACCU can be the banking partner to your school or family by visiting americaschristiancu.com/CLT.



Kimberly Farley:
Hi there, welcome back to the Anchored Podcast. This is Kimberly Farley, the Director of Homeschool Partnerships, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Misty Winkler. Welcome Misty. Yeah,

Mystie Winckler:
Thank you for having me. This will be fun.

Kimberly Farley:
my pleasure. So Misty is a second generation homeschooling mom of five, married to her high school sweetheart. Although homeschooling was not initially her first choice, her research on educational philosophy and classical education led her to embrace homeschooling. She loves learning alongside her children, both in knowledge and in character. She's now the author of the Convivial Homeschool and co-host of the Skolay Sisters podcast for classical homeschooling moms who are educating themselves while educating their kids. Along with the other Skolay Sisters, Misty helps create a community where homeschool moms can introduce ideas and challenges to grow and mature as homeschool moms. So thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited to start this conversation. Misty, can you give us just a brief overview of your own education as a homeschooler?

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, so my parents started homeschooling. I'm the oldest of seven. And so I was definitely the guinea pig. And they heard on Focus on the Family, Raymond Moore talk about better late than early and in the eighties. So that kind of started their process to decide to homeschool. And... We, they homeschooled all seven of us, at least until high school, some of us. I was homeschooled for, until I was 16, and then I went to the community college at 16, graduated with my two-year degree when I graduated high school. And then some of my siblings did the public high school, and some did the community college program. We all kind of... went different directions as we were teenagers, but we grew up homeschooled. And that was back in the day when you were either a Becca or Bob Jones or unschooling, and those were your options.

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
Like Susan Weissbauer's book on classical education, I remember when it came out. I was probably close to high school. I'm trying to think of when that, or at least when it made a splash in our circles. But that was after, basically, my own homeschooling was well underway. And so we were, I like to say we were Bob Jones in the morning and unschooling in the afternoon.

Kimberly Farley:
Nice.

Mystie Winckler:
Lots of library trips.

Kimberly Farley:
The best part of homeschooling, by the

Mystie Winckler:
Yes,

Kimberly Farley:
way, is library trips. Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
that's right.

Kimberly Farley:
Um, yeah. So were you still in that time period when like you couldn't go outside to play or you couldn't do things because there were still like questions of whether or not this was even legal.

Mystie Winckler:
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Is that legal was the usual question. Maybe even more than how do your kids get socialized, it was, is that legal? I was actually stopped by a police officer one time. I was out riding my bike just in our little neighborhood on lunch break. I was probably like nine years old. There was a police officer that lived in our neighborhood. There was also an elementary school. within a mile of our house. So he stopped and pulled over and asked why I was not in school. And I said it was homeschooled. And he didn't, he just kind of paused for a while and then said, well, you should go home then.

Kimberly Farley:
I'm sorry. He

Mystie Winckler:
And

Kimberly Farley:
didn't

Mystie Winckler:
I did,

Kimberly Farley:
quite know

Mystie Winckler:
and

Kimberly Farley:
what

Mystie Winckler:
I

Kimberly Farley:
to

Mystie Winckler:
didn't

Kimberly Farley:
do with

Mystie Winckler:
ride

Kimberly Farley:
that.

Mystie Winckler:
my bike at lunchtime after that.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I think it's really easy for homeschoolers now to lose sight of how different it was, you know, and it hasn't been that many years ago, right? 30,

Mystie Winckler:
True.

Kimberly Farley:
40 years ago, it was, I mean, huge, huge the shift that has happened because like everybody knows what homeschooling is now, unless

Mystie Winckler:
Oh yeah.

Kimberly Farley:
you talk to someone that's from a different country where it's still not permitted. But that's, we've really come a long way. So grateful for that. So in your bio, I read that homeschooling was not your first plan. It was your plan B. So tell us a little bit about the struggle to decide to homeschool your own children.

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, so my husband and I were both homeschooled and we are also both oldest children. And we got married young and had kids young. And so we were very much in our early 20s arrogance. Like we're gonna do this better.

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
every, I think every schooling option has its pros and cons, the things that it really does well, and then its particular struggles. And so we knew the struggles and the mistakes that are easy to fall into with homeschooling firsthand. And so we said, well, you know, and then classical education was a little bit new kid on the scene and looked amazing. And so, so well, you know, homeschoolings. Not the only way, it might not be the best way. It's classical education thing looks really good. So we will start a classical school. So we were on a board. There were some older families that were also wanting to start a classical school. So we joined a board that some other families were starting to start a school. I was pregnant with our first, so we didn't really have any. kids. We were trying to get something established before we needed it, but that effort did not pan out. There was one kindergarten year where the kindergarten teacher had her own son and one son and that was the only year that happened. It didn't go past that. And so we thought, well, okay, that didn't work out. So we'll homeschool. And And so then my husband and I started talking about, we'd already had our conversations about the struggles of homeschooling or the things that we thought weren't ideal. But our conversations then shifted to, okay, if we're gonna homeschool also, what were the good things about our homeschooling experiences that we don't want to drop? We know some of the things that we would like to change. We are interested in this classical education thing, but what do we wanna make sure that we continue and take into the next generation? And the main thing that we both... felt was one of the most important parts of our homeschooling education was the amount of time that you had to pursue other interests and other reading and the experience of learning not necessarily being tied to school. And you know, the library trips where you're pulling every book from a particular section because now you're interested in this time period in history. And so you read the whole library section in that history period, but it's because you chose to, not because it was assigned to you.

Kimberly Farley:
Mm-hmm.

Mystie Winckler:
And we both felt like the reading that we did on our own time because we chose it was the learning that really stuck more than the textbook. So it's like we both felt like we got through the textbook stuff as quickly as we could so that we could get on with our own reading. And it was our own reading that was our real education. And so we wanted to incorporate that approach into our own homeschool and into our own family where we opened the doors of interest for our kids. But we wanted to give them the time and the opportunity to develop their own interests and read widely themselves.

Kimberly Farley:
So to me that really sounds like what a lot of unschoolers do, right? It is very interest led, but you are classical, right? So you've somehow found a way to balance this interest led learning with also kind of having a core of what you expect the kids to embrace, right? So just how do you balance that?

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, I think there are definitely ways that it can sound like the interest-led or child-led, but I don't really see it that way, especially now, you know, after over a decade and a lot more educational philosophy under my own belt. But I think it's still not interest-led. because... the students or the child's interests aren't in charge. I'm still in charge. And there is a path of learning that I want them to take. But I feel like I'm nudging, like so I know what the path is that they should be heading down. And it's so wide that there's lots of options. There's lots of ways to travel down the path. you know, the bibliography trail is wide.

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
And so I'm like nudging them down the path, but I want them to be going down that path on their own steam. So it's not like, oh, wherever their interest decides to take them and if their interest isn't there, then they don't go down the trail. It's like that, if their interest isn't where it should be, then we take that in hand. But my goal is for them to be self-motivated learners kind of going where it's not me dragging them along, but

Kimberly Farley:
Right.

Mystie Winckler:
they're pursuing their own path of education.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I love that because I think we do have to kind of direct them like the ordering of loves, right? How do we

Mystie Winckler:
Right.

Kimberly Farley:
teach love that which is good, true and beautiful if they're opting for things that are not good and true and beautiful and we don't ever kind of put that before them. They don't develop that taste for what is better. And

Mystie Winckler:
Right.

Kimberly Farley:
so yeah, that's so that makes a lot of sense. So you're giving them from a broad range of acceptable choices basically

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah,

Kimberly Farley:
and

Mystie Winckler:
yeah.

Kimberly Farley:
letting them

Mystie Winckler:
And if their love is there, it is ordo amoris, and if that love and interest is there, then they will have direction and energy down the right path. And so

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
that's what we are trying to cultivate and watching for and leaving the margin for them to develop that and pursue that. and cultivate that in themselves too. Sometimes I think that having a ton of homework and then sports and then, you know, where all the time is booked,

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
then kids don't really have the opportunity, even if they do have their loves in the right place, they don't get the experience in actually pursuing them. and developing them themselves. So that's what we're trying to leave room for.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I think that's great, because they do need opportunity, right? And I think that's one of the joys of homeschooling is that it carves out more time for them to pursue those things and yeah, and just develop more as a person. So, okay, in your bio, some of the things that I read, it said that after reading Charlotte Mason, your understanding of the classical tradition underwent a shift. So can you tell us a little bit about that shift? Like... How did you go? Because I consider Charlotte Mason classical. I know

Mystie Winckler:
Yes.

Kimberly Farley:
a lot of people do. Other people are like, well, classical is narrowly defined, and it's the Susan Weisbauer book. But

Mystie Winckler:
Right.

Kimberly Farley:
I would love to hear your take on Charlotte Mason as classical and what that looks like for you.

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, I was just talking to a friend about this morning that I have been very careful to never call myself a Charlotte Mason homeschooler because... They have, that's a big, like there are people who imagine up a very particular thing, just like there are people who imagine a very particular thing with classical. So it's like which, some people see them as mutually exclusive and then you've got the whole camp thing going on and it can be very, you know, high online drama world, which I don't think it needs to be. But in the... So I much more identify with the conversations happening in the classical education world. And those are the conversations I would rather pay attention to and participate in as I can, rather than the Charlotte Mason angle, like, is this Charlotte Mason approved or not? It's like, well, whatever. But and I post, I did not, I refused to read Charlotte Mason for like, the first six years or so as a homeschool mom, because she was Victorian, and right at that time period where things are becoming progressive. So I just had assumptions, and then I read books that were based on Charlotte Mason loosely that just seemed, again, lacy tea parties and gentle and things I wasn't really interested in. until a friend convinced me like, no, you have to, oh, and then I did start the first volume, Home Education, where Charlotte Mason talks about airing out your house and keeping your children wearing wool clothes. And I'm like, this, I don't care. I don't care. This seems very time bound and I'm done. I like read the first three chapters and I'm like, see, I don't need to care about what she says. And so a friend convinced me, well, it was Brandy, convinced me to read volume six, which is what Charlotte Mason wrote at more of the end of her decades as an educator. And it's really the distillation of her educational philosophy. It's called toward a philosophy of education. And so there are fewer of those like nitty gritty practicalities that were really time bound to her particular location and time period. And she elaborates on her 20 principles that I just really loved. And by that time, I think the main book really that shifted my view of what classical education could be was actually Norms and Nobility by David Hicks. Because until I read Norms and Nobility, the only kind of classical I had seen or heard about was Susan Weisbauer, Dorothy Sayers, the model of chanting things when they're little, and then you do logic and then you do rhetoric. And that was fine. And I think there's still a case to be made for those elements, but norms and nobility felt like a bigger picture and a more fleshed out picture that I think even some of those values from our homeschooling history, it felt like this is why I value, the time spent reading and the books. And this is just that lifestyle of pursuing truth, goodness and beauty and Ordo Amoris. And the difference between an education, mindset that values tradition and one that is progressive. And you just really fleshed out to me anyway, that it's really classical versus progressive education. Those are the two big mindsets. And so it's less about the practicalities of, you know, do you... do narration all the time, okay, then you're Charlotte Mason. And do you do chants in Latin in third grade? Okay, then you're classical. But it was more like, do you value tradition and are you trying to learn from the past and follow in that path, maybe not in an identical way, but in that path? Or do you think we should throw it all out and now we can do something brand new that's gonna be better? And so I started digging into like the differences in those two mindsets. And that's where I felt like my understanding of education and the whole project of education was clarified. And it allowed for a broader cross section of methods to fit into, okay, yeah, that's classical. It's all classical schools or homeschools don't. It's not only that they don't have to, but they won't look the same. So Charlotte Mason fit into that and saying, okay, so she has some very specific methods, but they fall into the principles of classical education.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I love it too, because I think that sometimes we define things so narrowly that part of that is a limitation of like, oh, I can't

Mystie Winckler:
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Farley:
do this in my homeschool or I must do this in my homeschool. And it's like, part of it is that I think the individuality of meeting each child's needs and there is flexibility to do that within this overarching traditional. you know, valuing of the things that are old that have anchored us throughout time. You know, I think that there is that beautiful flexibility that we have, and as homeschoolers especially, you have a really unique opportunity to bring that out. So I have been seeing in homeschooling, and I think it's pretty common in most places throughout the country that... there's, we love the education innovation, right? I love to see more and more models of education popping up that meet all kinds of different people's needs. But there's definitely a shift, even in the mindset of homeschool parents that I talked to, that they don't feel capable of providing a quality education to their children. They must have to outsource things, right? I'm

Mystie Winckler:
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Farley:
also outsourcing certain things because you want to, it meets a need at a specific time, whatever, but I think what grieves me sometimes is that there seems to be a sense that I must outsource because I'm not capable of doing this on my own. What would you say to people that are just feeling like I can't educate my own children and I've got to partner with someone else to do it?

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, I'm not sure that's really new. I think, you know, in my mom's generation, there just weren't the same opportunities. And so... I think more in like the 80s and 90s, it was, well, you know, maybe we can at least have a Christian homeschool. And even if the academics aren't great, that's not what matters. What matters is that we have a Christian family that's together. And there's an element of truth in that. But I think there was still an insecurity about. mom's ability to educate, especially when you have a lot of kids and they're all needing different things. There's a real stretch there that is a huge challenge. And then just as the years have gone on and now we have the younger moms who have not had a Christian education themselves really do have a... you know, a lack of education that they feel, especially when they come at the questions about, okay, well, here's the reading list or here's the plan. And they're like, whoa, none of this is familiar. That's completely overwhelming. And, and it can be, and it is a lot. But I, one of the things that does make me bristle is sometimes I do feel like the marketing for some of even just in a box curriculum or some co-ops or some online places seem to just like nettle that, try to draw on the insecurity of moms to like will be your solution. And one of the, one part of our mission with Skollay Sisters is to help moms educate themselves and educate with. confidence. And a lot of the insecurity is, it's normal and it's natural, but we don't have to operate from that place. And the solution is just picking up a book and reading. It doesn't have to be like, oh, unless I have a college degree or a master's degree or whatever, that qualifies me. It's like, no, actually just being a learner. qualifies you and then you bring your kids along. And when you homeschool, the great thing is you start in first grade.

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
And so homeschooling really is this beautiful, wonderful opportunity for women to repair their own education alongside their kids and be co-learners with their children. And so, I mean, we use some online classes and some pre-recorded classes, especially when with like 12-year-old boys. It's right around like 12 and 13 and up into high school with boys. I feel like they definitely need voices that are not their mom at some point during the day.

Kimberly Farley:
Absolutely.

Mystie Winckler:
And so we've done like Old Western Culture through Roman Roads or, you know, different programs like that. Um... And even there... I can learn so much even if I am not able to participate and I don't do all the homework, but I'm overhearing bits and pieces and it changes the family atmosphere when all that learning at the different levels and the conversations are happening. And instead of being intimidated as the mom, as if you have to be above all the kids. because they are going to surpass you. But at some point, you change from being the giver of the education to the facilitator. But even then, it's really that posture of being a co-learner and having conversations and learning alongside them that makes that family atmosphere of. learning and growing a beautiful thing, even on the hard days.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I think not to denigrate in any way the offerings that are out there because they really do serve a need. I think I just always am sorrowful when I hear homeschool parents go, I couldn't possibly teach my children, so I'm going to outsource everything. I'm like, but we can work with them. So

Mystie Winckler:
Yes.

Kimberly Farley:
I love that. I feel like it was the humility of me saying, I don't know the answers to that. Let's find it out together. That sometimes patterned like. how they would solve problems in life, right?

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, I think a part of it is our culture that values the expert.

Kimberly Farley:
Mm.

Mystie Winckler:
And so sometimes in some circles, there's the assumption that if you're saying, oh, I'm gonna homeschool, you're saying, oh, I am an expert. And moms don't wanna say that, they recognize that they aren't. And so then, They feel like they can't homeschool because you have to be an expert in all the subjects of all the grades before you can do that. And that's not, we don't need a culture of experts. We need a culture of readers and thinkers and question askers and people who will stick with something to find the answer. So I... did Saxon Math when I was growing up and now that was one, you know, homeschool weird baggage. I was like, I can't open Saxon Math. So we do Math you see. So it's my third child. So it was technically my fourth time through fractions. And it was like this light bulb went off and I'm like, wait. So fractions are like division problems. And that's why we sometimes write division problem. Like it was just.

Kimberly Farley:
Ha ha!

Mystie Winckler:
But it took four students four times through. But it completely changed just my whole picture really of math, it changed my perspective and... Even though it took that long, it was such a beautiful thing that it's just so exciting that more families can experience that kind of, you know, it might take four times through. And you know, we still found the opportunities to make sure that our older children, you know, like my oldest where when he got to algebra, my husband came in and I was explaining a concept to him incorrectly. And so I was fired from math that day. It was like the best day of my homeschool career. Ha ha ha. my husband took over and they all got well beyond me, but we found just the ways we were able to make that work for every student to get what they needed. But now I can help my younger students through those levels because I have done the young years over and over again and I'm like, wait, I get it now. And that can happen with all the subjects. And we can't really force it to happen. We just have to be open and humble and continuing to stick with what we're being called to do. And that ability to really reclaim our own education to me is so exciting.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I agree. I think I learned more homeschooling than I did in high school and college a lot of times,

Mystie Winckler:
Yes.

Kimberly Farley:
right? That we just, because I got to learn alongside the kids and I got to see their take on it, especially once they got to high school. I was like, this

Mystie Winckler:
Oh

Kimberly Farley:
is

Mystie Winckler:
yeah.

Kimberly Farley:
what's really good because

Mystie Winckler:
Yes.

Kimberly Farley:
they're drawing conclusions. And I'm like, wow, that's really profound. I didn't see that. And so I love the fact that I learned from my kids as well as, you know. Helping them walk through, how to write a paper, but

Mystie Winckler:
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Farley:
important things, right?

Mystie Winckler:
Yes.

Kimberly Farley:
So your book, your podcast, you've titled the convivial homeschool or the convivial circle. So explain to me why that title and what needs your meeting there.

Mystie Winckler:
Well, I didn't realize how few people knew the word convivial when I picked it. But

Kimberly Farley:
I've

Mystie Winckler:
I

Kimberly Farley:
heard

Mystie Winckler:
just,

Kimberly Farley:
the word, just not

Mystie Winckler:
yeah,

Kimberly Farley:
necessarily associated that way.

Mystie Winckler:
I love the word convivial. And in one word, it really sums up what I think most of us are working for in our homeschools or just our families in our homemaking, uh, in the homes that we're trying to build. And so it's, you know, if you look at the two roots put together, it's con and vive. So it's with life. And so it's about being in fellowship. And it's not necessarily always like a happy, happy party time, or everything's always fun. But it is a profound. profound festivity, like a deep sense of just being in this together. Sometimes I get, if I get, you know, mission focused or goal oriented, which is my bent, then I've, I discovered that my face does not look happy. I usually am fine with just smiling by, smiling is not difficult for me, but I had, you know, a house full of little kids and I realized I was just always in my head and. I didn't look happy and I wasn't really oriented toward helping us all get along like we're on the same team. It was more like, okay, you do this, you do this. I'm deploying you as my little units. That wasn't actually the way I wanted our family to function, but that's just the default I was creating. And so... The word convivial, and I put smile on my to-do list as the top item every day, just because if we are learning and growing and living a life of gratitude and joy, that changes everything. And that needs to be the foundation point that everything else flows from. not the future end goal that someday maybe we'll get there when everything's going my way, but we start with, we're gonna get along and we're gonna do this together and we're gonna be in fellowship.

Kimberly Farley:
So what you talk about a lot of times is kind of the ordering of your home, but also the ordering of your own heart, right?

Mystie Winckler:
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Farley:
To be in the right place so that you can minister to your family. And so what has been the response to that? Because that's not always something that's talked about as much, right? There's a lot of information out there about... how we instruct or which books to read or, you know, and really, really great helpful information that we all want, but I don't see as much about how do we order our own lives and our own homes so that we can pour into the lives of others.

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah, yeah, if, if ordo amoris and ordering your affections is what we want for our kids, then that means that we have to want it for ourselves because we aren't really pointing them toward that if we aren't operating from that place ourselves. We can't like push other people into it while rejecting that ordering ourselves. and um I think. that most, especially moms, they are looking for the solutions, maybe the quick fix. They're like, okay, this situation in my home or my home school is broken if I just find the right curriculum or if I just find the right cleaning checklist, then it will all work out. And work out means that there will never be conflict and it will all... just happen without that much effort. It will be smooth and easy, and that's when we know that it's working. And that's just not the way that God made the world. And even the hard days when the kids are in tears over math, and dinner is burning, and we have a discipline issue over here to deal with, plus we find that the... homework that we thought was done wasn't done. And there are all these details and it's not finding the right system that will prevent any one of those things from ever happening. That is our job. Our job is to be, is to respond with repentance ourselves. God's using all of these circumstances to sanctify us. These are all for our sanctification. And so He's working in us through them. And so if we can respond appropriately, extending the forgiveness that we've received and pointing our children. to forgiveness and to grace and to joyful obedience. We really need the struggle to get there. If everything went our way and if everything was smooth and easy, we would actually not mature. And so we are being matured and grown through the struggle and our kids are, and we're all. having different elements and different levels of struggle. And the struggle is the point where we are all being grown and being matured and being sanctified. So we can appreciate it instead of trying to apply a quick fix to it. So it really is a heart attitude mindset adjustment to what's going on that I think is the. most important piece that a lot of us are missing.

Kimberly Farley:
Yeah, I love that because it is in that messiness of life that the it doesn't feel like a blessing at the time, but that's when the blessings come from walking through that and relying on the Lord and

Mystie Winckler:
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Farley:
growing in His grace. And so love that. All right, Misty, we always end the anchor podcast asking the hardest question. Can you can you find one book? that has most influenced your life. And we all know scripture, right? I totally did a cop out when I was asked this question. I'm like, it still has to be the Bible. I don't know any other book to name. Jeremy made me pick a particular book of the Bible, but you can, so you can give me your answer there. But with the homeschool moms, I always like to ask too, what is the one that's like your favorite read aloud or your favorite family book that you all have savored together? So two books there.

Mystie Winckler:
I think probably the books that shape our shared family culture would be Tolkien and P.G. Wodehouse. Those two are where our family quotes come from

Kimberly Farley:
Nice.

Mystie Winckler:
and that we go to again and again, especially on road trips. That's like the titles that keep everyone happy.

Kimberly Farley:
That's important

Mystie Winckler:
Um,

Kimberly Farley:
on family road trips, by the

Mystie Winckler:
it

Kimberly Farley:
way.

Mystie Winckler:
is.

Kimberly Farley:
We don't need that much sanctification while driving.

Mystie Winckler:
Yeah. And especially now, you know, my youngest is 10. So we're not in the little house in the prairie read aloud stage anymore. But those were fun years too.

Kimberly Farley:
Yes.

Mystie Winckler:
Um... Bye. Um Probably four. My homeschool education philosophy journey, I think it would be Norms and Nobility, was the book that kind of shifted my perspective and opened my eyes to the bigger great conversation about education. And then I started reading from there, but my curiosity and interest was sparked through reading Norms and Nobility.

Kimberly Farley:
I'm not sure we've had that one mentioned before. I would have to check

Mystie Winckler:
Oh,

Kimberly Farley:
our

Mystie Winckler:
all

Kimberly Farley:
list.

Mystie Winckler:
right.

Kimberly Farley:
Well, that's so really great. All right, Misty, it has been a pleasure today. Thank you so much for joining us. And I'm really excited that people will hear a little bit more about the journey and that, you know, love this embracing of the classical tradition, maybe a couple of different ways. Like it's all right, it can all be classical. So. I appreciate you joining us and we wish you all the best.

Mystie Winckler:
Thank you, Kimberly.

Kimberly Farley:
All right.