Anchored by the Classic Learning Test

Greg Miller on The Benefits of Intertwining Faith and Learning

September 21, 2023 Classic Learning Test
Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
Greg Miller on The Benefits of Intertwining Faith and Learning
Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Greg Miller, the president of Malone University. Join the two as they discuss the benefits of intertwining faith and learning, integrating athletics into academics, and aiding students in falling in love with Scripture. Miller also talks about his unique experiences finishing his dissertation in Germany during the fall of the Berlin Wall and taking on the daunting task of refining Malone’s core curriculum.

Today’s episode of Anchored is brought to you with support from America’s Christian Credit Union. Find out how ACCU can be the banking partner to your school or family by visiting americaschristiancu.com/CLT.





Soren Schwab (CLT):
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we are joined by Dr. Greg Miller. Dr. Miller is the president of Malone University and has an extensive background in ministry and education. Miller earned his bachelor's degree in historical theology, followed by a master's degree in history. He earned a doctorate in religious studies and served as a teaching and research assistant at Boston University. Miller taught history for nine years at Valley Forge Christian College before joining Malone University as an Associate History Professor in 2000. Miller has held several positions in the university, including department chair, director of general education, associate provost, and provost. He has also served in ministry as a youth pastor, associate pastor, interim lead pastor, and adjunct faculty member for Asia Pacific Theological Seminary. Dr. Miller is the author and co-author of over 40 articles on books on Christianity and Christian-Islamic relations. And on a side note, he is also an accomplished runner with several national championships and records to his name. And I don't know if we have time Dr. Miller to get into that, but I would be curious to hear about that. Dr. Miller, thank you so much for joining today.

Dr. Greg Miller:
It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Absolutely. We always start the Anchored Podcast by talking about our guests own educational journey. So I'd love to hear what was education like for you growing up? What kind of schools did you attend?

Dr. Greg Miller:
So although I'm currently serving in Ohio, I grew up a long ways away from here. I grew up in Western South Dakota, north of the Black Hills area. If you've ever been out there, about 15 miles north on the prairie from a town that's known for a major motorcycle rally nowadays called Sturgis. But what's best known probably is... Mount Rushmore. So about 50 miles north from Mount Rushmore. Grew up on a farm ranch from family that were, as we called them, Volga Deutsch. They were Germans who were living in Russia and fled to the United States during the 19-teens, just right in the context of the Great War. all the good land in Ohio was evidently taken, so they ended up on the plains in South Dakota. And so I had a wonderful upbringing, Christ-centered family, serving in church, our youth group was really at the center of our life in the small community, and I mean it was small. I drove about 15 miles one way every day. I told my students uphill both ways. to go to a town of 500. So my public high school is graduating class around 40 students or so. And there are more sheep than people in my home county. And I will tell you, it's arid, it's dry. I didn't really appreciate it, the landscape until I was much older. Going back now, it's beautiful, but when I was growing up, I couldn't wait to get out. In fact, I went to high school only three years. It's pretty unusual back at that time. I felt an early call to ministry. And so I went to my home denominations, Bible College at first in Springfield, Missouri. And as a young guy, met my wife there. We are married as teenagers actually. And on Monday will be our 40th. first wedding anniversary.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Thanks for watching!

Dr. Greg Miller:
And so serving the church has always been really central to my sense of call. Although after we were married, after my second year of college, my wife's first year of college, I had always loved ideas, always in love with ideas. Saw myself as intellectual wannabe. and came to really fall in love with the idea of being a college professor. My wife is an Oklahoman, so we transitioned to Tulsa. And you had mentioned that I did my undergraduate work at ORU. That was really at a very great time. My primary professor had just gotten back from doing his PhD work with Wolfhard Pannenberg in Munich.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Oh my goodness, yeah.

Dr. Greg Miller:
And so I remember sitting in a classroom one day and listening and saying that would be the coolest job in the world. And so the Lord used that to kind of redirect, although we continued to serve the church, to redirect both of us actually toward thinking about education. Before I entered the presidency, my wife was a public high school teacher in French and Spanish, also taught in private Christian schools. She's a linguist, an exceptional linguist. So we were there. She was finishing up her bachelor's degree. I decided that I would go across town to the University of Tulsa to do a master's. I had focused my undergraduate work in historical theology on the post-New Testament period, apostolic fathers in particular. And so my academic progression has like literally been kind of working my way through time. I went to the University of Tulsa and focused on medieval history there and while she finished up and it was pretty exciting. I graduated with my masters and her with her bachelor's walking together through the, through commencement. So that was wonderful. And I was searching then for a PhD program. and had a couple of opportunities, but went to Boston University, in part because Boston is a really high-powered academic world. And for a South Dakota kid, the opportunity to, I took courses, you know, at other institutions there in the Boston area through the BTI, Boston Theological Institute, and got to experience, it was just, it was so exciting. And I will tell you, I don't think there's any city in the country that crackles with energy as Boston does in the fall when all of the students return from all over the world to the city. It was exciting. But in particular, I was interested in studying Reformation history, Reformation of Renaissance. I become convinced that the real pivotal period in the Western tradition was the early modern period in terms of the creation of the world in which we live, and particularly the coming of the Protestant Reformation. I think it had part to do with my own development theologically and coming from a pretty conservative holiness background. The personal discovery of Reformation theology made an enormous difference in my life. I come from German Lutheran heritage far back. And so I think I was really drawn to the study of Reformation in part in my own theological development. And we had a great professor there that I chose to study with, Carter Lindberg, who is one of the renowned Reformation historians. So as I was doing my PhD there, I Carter Lindberg had worked out an opportunity for me to apply for a research grant for dissertation research in Germany. And this was called the International Research and Exchange Fulbright Sister Grant. And at that point, that was limited to Eastern Bloc countries. And he had lots of Reformation faculty at the University of Leipzig. And so I was approved for an academic year of research for the 90-91 academic year in Leipzig. We received the approval in September of 1989.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Oh my goodness. Hahaha.

Dr. Greg Miller:
As I, you know, we were, my wife and I were following events. I came home from the university one day and my wife said, you better turn on the TV. And there were people crawling all over the Berlin Wall. And she said, what does this mean? What does it mean for us? Are we still going? And I, you know, honestly, I said, I don't know. I have no idea. It turns out that we did go. Our first passports, my first passport actually has a... has an East German, a D-Day Air passport stamp on it. We entered the country when there were still Soviet soldiers on the streets in Leipzig, and we were there, lived through reunification. And so I'm studying history there in the archives from 500 years ago, and we're watching. Kurt Masur and our apartment, if you know anything about this particular era in German history, our apartment was literally right above St. Nicolae Kirsche courtyard where the evening prayer meetings were held that precipitated the, literally we could look out our front window on St. Nicolae and it's been absolutely amazing time. The first time that I was ever in West Germany was actually in West Berlin, where I was pushing the stroller of my one-year-old across the rubble of the Berlin Wall to get from East Germany to West Germany. So I could talk a lot about that time period. I'll go on and just briefly summarize this by kind of the critical turning point in my life occasionally. is that after that time period, I came back to the United States. I'd done all the research. I hadn't written hardly anything. And my doctoral advisor had big dreams for me, research one institution, you know, I'm going to help you. Don't take a job. Complete the dissertation. Don't take a job unless you absolutely have to. And my wife said, you absolutely have to. She was so tired of being a poor graduate student. So I was looking around, I was gonna be a light for Christ in the dark halls of academe, gonna, you know, applying to these big secular schools. And I went in to talk to a pastor that I had worked with in Tulsa that had a pension for Christian higher ed. And he didn't, came in just to give him greetings. He cut to the chase, he said, Greg, I think you should be in Christian higher ed, and I hope you don't mind, but I set up this interview for you. And it turns out to be at a little Christian college outside of Philadelphia called Valley Forge Christian College. I had no intention of taking a position there at all. But from the moment that I drove on campus, I had the strongest sense of God's call to do anything that I've ever had in my entire life. It couldn't have been any clearer if... handwriting would have appeared on a wall. I called my wife that first night and I said, honey, I don't know what it is, but we have to come here. I was a very young PhD, and I assumed that whenever God would lead us through times of transition, it would always be with that kind of clarity, and it never has been, again, since for anything. But it was the pivotal moment. We lived on campus. We were the cool, young, hip, professors with a little baby and we threw ourselves into the life of that small Christian college and Even though I'm a product of Christian of evangelical Christian higher ed I had never loved it from the inside like we fell in love with it and And that it turns out to have been the kind of the pivot pivotal decision I never ended up at a research one and never wanted to dedicating my life and career to the amazing transformative work that God does in institutions like Malone.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Beautiful. Well, I've been smiling the whole time. You know, you're talking to the German, the German who was just a little lad when the Berlin Wall came down, I was three years old. So just listening to you. And wow, what an experience to study history while history is unfolding right around you. So really appreciate your sharing that. It's clear that your view on education is outgrowth of ministry, right? And vice versa. How do you feel that? faith informs or maybe should inform teaching, especially in an age where expressing any sort of religious opinion, I guess to use the contemporary term, can get you cancelled, right? Even expressing beliefs that have been the beliefs of the church for centuries. How do you and how would you recommend approaching that?

Dr. Greg Miller:
Well, it's one of the reasons why I'm serving in Christian higher ed, because here at a place like Malone and at Valley Forge, but Valley Forge is more geared toward ministerial training. Malone is the liberal arts and professions as well, is that not only here is it permitted to integrate faith, but I've made it very clear. in my administrative leadership roles here, that every single class at Malone, it does not matter what that class is, every single class in a way that is organic and natural, must integrate faith. And by that, I mean that there is reflection on what difference it makes that you are a content analysis approach. And so what I have enjoyed over the course of more than 30 years in Christian higher ed is certainly not the case elsewhere. And I have friends who are believers in secular institutions who literally have to shut off a part of their mind, their heart, their soul, in order to teach. basically content that is really stripped sometimes of its essence because they simply cannot integrate faith as openly as what we expect to have happen here. Now, I mean every class. I mean an accounting class, any kind of math class. And people ask me, you know, when you're integrating faith in a math class, do Christians have, you know... have different formulas than secular people? You know, is it, you know, is Christian math one plus one equals three or something like that? And it, and obviously the content is in a math or an accounting class is going to be really, according to best practice in the discipline as a whole. But in a Christian university, it's not simply the content. You're adding elements to that course on accounting that simply would not be present elsewhere. And that includes reflection on the why. Why are you doing this? So a commitment to explore on an individual student basis calling and how every single position, every single Beirut, every single calling here can actually glorify God. If it's done out of a spirit of service and of the gifts that you are asked by the Lord to give to the world, it's not just the why you do it, but the how you do it. So what we have seen in the modern era, especially with the rise of scientism, is this kind of teaching the content alone shorn. of an ethical, moral framework, shorn of a sense of why you do it. And that produces perhaps really good chemists that work at Dow Chemical that can be involved in activities that would be really reprehensible if you actually took a larger look at it, or accountants that work for Enron, or things of this nature. So I... I'm grateful that we still have spaces in this country where you can get a quality education with credentials that enable you to serve at the highest levels of business, government, et cetera. But you can do it within a context that recognize the centrality of faith and of ethical frameworks and of meaning and purpose in life. Education is pushing so hard today. toward this idea of an instrumental education. So all you do is you're like, how is this gonna make money for you or something of this nature? What job are you going to do? And when you're integrating faith, you simply cannot approach anything in that kind of instrumental way. As I described it here at Malone, we're trying to do simultaneously two things. And I don't believe that they're, that they necessarily are in competition. One of which is to produce a graduate that has an opportunity for a lifetime of human flourishing. And the second is to produce a graduate that has a good chance of a job in June after graduation. And those two things actually can work extraordinarily well together. In fact, I think that they should. And so those are just a few of my reflections here at Malone. Every single class has to integrate faith in an organ, not simply by putting a scripture verse on the syllabus or praying at the beginning of class, and we support our faculty in a significant way in order to do this well, as many of them are not had an educational experience through any kind of Christian organization or institution. So we hire for mission, clearly. But then in the second year on the fall semester, we give every new faculty member, second year faculty member course release time to participate in a faith and learning integration seminar that's put on by some really talented and experienced faculty members. And they, as a result of that, those faculty members are trained They're encouraged, they actually have to produce a paper at the end that kind of outlines how they will do this faith integration. And then their ability to do this is actually woven into our promotion and tenure process. And so we not only tell people that they need to do this, but we work hard to equip them to do it, and then we hold them accountable for it.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Thanks for sharing that. And I think I told you before recording that I'm a product of Christian higher ed, even though I grew up in a secular household. I mean, it was completely life changing. And I think what it clicked for me, and I'm sure it's the same at Malone, is that the professors didn't constantly ask, well, what do you want to do when you're older? But who do you want to be? What kind of person do you want to be? All about forming me. They took such an interest in me and forming me as a human being because they trusted that you're going to learn. the skills later on to be employable. And now as an employer, we hire a lot of students that graduate from institutes like Malone because they know who they are, right? The kind of person that they are. And they're just really well equipped to either already have the skills or to learn the skills because they were trained that way. But it was never the main priority, right? And I think that's counter-cultural in a way, but it also seems to be... be the winning formula. So you let Malone in a wide range of new innovative initiatives and just for our audience, this is going to be year two as president, but you've been at Malone since I think I mentioned 2000, is it 2000? Right.

Dr. Greg Miller:
Correct.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
One of the initiatives I'm really interested in the development of a revised general education program. And again, talking about being countercultural, because I think if I read the Chronicles of Higher almost every week a new story of colleges gutting their humanities department, right? Gutting their philosophy department. Can you tell us about the changes that you made to the program, how it improved the program, and maybe some of the reasoning behind it?

Dr. Greg Miller:
That's actually a wonderful question that also connects to kind of how I ended up as president, because I told people for years and years that I was going to always be a classroom professor. I would be department chair, but that's it. Not doing

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Hehehehehehe

Dr. Greg Miller:
anything else. I've repented of many snarky comments that I made as a younger faculty member about administration. I'm continuing to have to repent about those. But the Lord used a conversation with a colleague in 2014 with me that really changed again the trajectory of my life that the real work really does happen in the classroom. No question about it. But that there are people that need to take on administrative roles. so that the people who are in the classroom can continue to do what they do with a laser-like focus on the students. So I really view, I've always viewed my work as an administrator in terms of like a hospital president, like a hospital administrator. I mean, recognizing fully that it's the surgeons and the doctors and the nurses that they're doing the work. But the last thing you want a surgeon to do... as he's getting prepped to go into surgery, is wondering whether there are supplies in the closet, wondering whether the lights are going to stay on, how are community relations. You want them laser focused on that surgery. The Lord said, we need people in Christian higher ed, just really touch my heart with this, that are willing to do that. I've never felt like the presidency is something that— someone should aspire to. In fact, I feel quite strongly the other way. Anybody that really desperately wants to be a college president should not be let anywhere near the office, because they either don't understand what it's all about or their motives are all wrong. But in 2014, I said yes to the Lord in this and that meant taking on additional administrative responsibilities to get ready in case the call were to come. And so the first thing I did was we needed a general education director. And it was somebody that would have to step in a very tumultuous moment of our core curriculum. And that is we had just received notification from our board of trustees that we were mandated to cut our general education core curriculum by 30%. And if you know anything about higher ed, if you want to have any dispute on campus, mess with the core curriculum. And so I said, okay, I'll take on this responsibility and said, this could really be a horrible thing, but let's take advantage of this crisis to do something that's actually really good. And so we brought a different philosophy to our core curriculum. We did actually reduce the footprint by 30 percent, but we did so in a way that I believe really improved, maintained, improved, and strengthened the core curriculum. So philosophically, one of the principles by which we operated was that we moved away from these massive survey courses. that had textbooks that were like three inches thick, where content was king, and where it was a mile wide, but an inch deep, and the left students with, you know, kind of before this sense of, I've got to mass memorize all of this data, spit it out from an exam, but nothing is sticking to me. And so what we did was we moved away from these large surveys and courses and to try to do things that were more thematic and would give an individual faculty member an opportunity to go deep in a way that we believe will be life-changing or potentially life-changing for the students who are in that classroom. Much more engagement with primary techs. in my own disciplinary area, we went from a two semester sequence of world history with two, three inch textbooks to requiring introduction to modern world, which still sounds like a lot. But we said, it's really from the Reformation on that we want to have our students focus on and we dumped the big textbooks. And we said, we're going to engage these primary source texts. We're gonna provide them with a framework, but we're gonna go deep on, and we'd give the faculty members leeway to choose. I really wanna talk about these three themes, and that's going to be the focus. And so it's a really different change in approach that has proven to be extraordinarily successful. I will tell you that one of the, probably the biggest hurdle that I had to get over with our faculty in this, philosophical change. Well, I mentioned two of them, one of which was a change in our, the way that we taught Bible. So we had a Old Testament survey and then we had a New Testament survey that was very content oriented. So here you have incoming freshmen students learning about or being taught and having to give back information on exams on. authorship for authorship theories of the Pentateuch or Q. And in an increasingly biblically illiterate culture, in introduction to biblical studies was not what our core curriculum needed. So we changed out that model. And even our Bible faculty pushed back on me a little bit on this because I said, we wanna create a single semester. course that covers the narrative arc of scripture so that this sticks with students for the rest of their lives and they can understand the narrative arc of scripture. I want them to know how to find the book of Psalms in the Bible and genre and what genre means and most of all I want them to fall in love with scripture. And they said you can't make a student fall in love with scripture. I said if you quiz them on cue. I can guarantee that they're not going to be falling in love with scripture. But if they see the narrative arc and if they can understand parable and prophecy and poetry and how that fits in, we're going to equip them for life. And they said, it's going to be too shallow. But it turns out that level is exactly what our students that are coming from a biblically illiterate, even from the churches, honestly. from largely biblically illiterate basis need. And so that was a hurdle that we had to overcome kind of philosophically, but I'm very pleased with the outcome. And then second, there were some cases where kind of like Russian nesting dolls, we moved away from a traditional liberal arts like you take a math class or you've got to pass competency in algebra too. And instead, I made the case and we approved a curriculum that did not have an Algebra 2 class or a dedicated math class. Instead, what we said is every single student needs to have quantitative literacy, numeracy. And what we're going to do instead of a class on this, we are going to make sure that it is embedded with no room for student to be able to avoid it. in one of the components. And it turns out that the best component to do the, to make sure that literacy was present was in our understanding persons, which includes sociology and psychology, course options for them there. And we simply ensured that those courses included real living examples. So not like an esoteric theoretical example of a math problem, but here's how you use mathematics in this particular discipline in a way statistically that makes sense. And so we embedded it in the curriculum. And so those were some major philosophical differences, but in doing so, we preserved what I, against some external pressure for financial reasons. We preserved a core curriculum that I believe ended up being more robust than what we had before. And you can't have a Christian university without a strong core curriculum. It

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Yeah.

Dr. Greg Miller:
just, it just can't have.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Amen. Yeah. One, listening to you and how you thought about some of these changes, it actually reminds me a lot of what I'm seeing on the K-12 side and some of these newer classical schools and the way they approach learning and being immersed in some of these texts. And so it's absolutely fascinating. It sounds like from giving you a recent enrollment trends, a lot of these changes have been very fruitful. So I'm very excited to hear about that. I'm a former athlete, and so I have to pick your brain on this one question here, because another initiative that you led was the enhanced collaboration between academics and athletics. And I think a lot of folks that are listening are maybe teachers or in higher ed that have sometimes felt like a tension between academics and athletics were the. Maybe the athletics can get a little bit in the way, or maybe from an athlete's perspective, the academics can get in the way of the other. There are seen as conflicted interests, but that's not necessarily the case. I think we can both agree on that. What did you do at Malone to enhance that collaboration between quote unquote the two departments, and what recommendations do you have for educators to strike that balance with really the... the student's best interest in mind.

Dr. Greg Miller:
One of the changes that happened at the university when I became provost, and this was something that I had asked for and embraced, and that is to whom does the athletic director and athletics report? That makes a huge difference. And prior to me being provost, athletics report, the athletic, Director in Athletics reported to our VP for enrollment.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Interesting.

Dr. Greg Miller:
So if athletics is seen primarily as a branch of enrollment as an enrollment driver, you end up with a very different approach to athletics across the organization. And so structural changes make a difference. They signal things and And we're embodied beings who were even officed near, who we interact with. And so as provost, I became not only the chief academic officer, but also the university official responsible for athletics. And that created just structurally opportunities for collaboration and communication between these two units. that even at my own home, University of Malone, did feel. And I will tell you, even still at times, there is a sense of, it can be a sense of tension here, especially in the spring semester when you get a lot of baseball rain out days and we're trying to scramble around to accommodate class schedules and things. So we haven't totally solved this as of yet, but that structural move Turns out to have been a really important for us. And so I'm bringing people together So we've had faculty members that actually lived as though we did not have an athletics program at Milan They would come in they would teach But they probably couldn't tell you the names of three head coaches Even though Those athletes that are on the playing field are the same athletes that are in the class and they share educational responsibility for them. So putting people together, making sure that we had faculty that have an opportunity and are encouraged to attend athletic events, practices even, to serve as chaplains for teams. And then... when the coaches see the faculty engaged and caring about the educational work that the coach is doing with the athlete. And I'm an athlete myself. I think I've learned more about the Christian life through athletics than through almost anything, perhaps except marriage. And it's a really critical important part of one's educational formation in my mind, or can be. And so when the coaches began to see the faculty members partnering with them, caring about the same students, praying about the same students, then it's not an us versus them. It's like, okay, so how can we work together as an organization to achieve our educational aims and to provide a space where God can transform the lives of our students? in ways that this is really what we want to have for a Malone grad. So for anyone who's thinking about this, I would encourage you to think structurally about how you do this and the informal opportunities that you have to bring people from these two departments together. It will pay enormous dividends. When I became president, I actually took the athletic director as a direct report to me as president because I did want to signal the importance of athletics. And I want that person at the table to understand the challenges that our classroom educators face and to be able to convey that back. So it's even a further integration. I am very concerned about any institution of higher ed where athletics stands in a silo alone. because there is no shortage of problems that happen when athletics is not legitimately integrated into the educational mission of the institution as a whole.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
I agree. Thank you for sharing. We do have time for one more question, Dr. Miller. I know that's usually the hardest one for our guests, especially folks like you who are so widely read. If there's one book or one text that you can point to that has been most influential in your life, what would that be and why?

Dr. Greg Miller:
Well, I'm not gonna go the Sunday School answer here and say the Bible,

Soren Schwab (CLT):
That's

Dr. Greg Miller:
although

Soren Schwab (CLT):
assumed,

Dr. Greg Miller:
that

Soren Schwab (CLT):
I

Dr. Greg Miller:
would

Soren Schwab (CLT):
suppose.

Dr. Greg Miller:
clearly be the case. So I will tell you, there are some books that have stayed with me pretty much my whole life. I will mention one in particular, came to me at a very formative period of time and may be one of the books that I have reread the most often. I will tell you that I do have a favorite saint. a post New Testament favorite saint. It is St. Augustine. And in late high school, I first encountered the Confessions. And that would be the book that I would say has had the most significant impact on me personally throughout my life. And it's not just the content, although the content is spectacular and has shaped deeply my conviction of human depravity and solo grazia, and just in so many ways theologically, Saint Augustine has shaped me. But it came to me at a point where I had grown up in a church setting that was highly affective with an A, strong emphasis on personal relationship with Christ, on... the emotional engagement in one's relationship with Christ. And I saw myself as kind of a, you know, a budding intellectual. So how does this mind, heart, spirit thing work as a young teenager? Is there any model out there that where you don't just have brilliant, you know, you can be a brilliant thinker, but... But there's this clear relationship with Christ that is personal and very strong new mythology, where you can write a letter to Christ, pouring out your heart, our restless hearts, and finding in this relationship a peace. course a piece that transcends all understanding, that guards, as Paul says, our minds and our hearts in Christ Jesus. I found my lifetime exemplar for that, that heart and mind in St. Augustine and in the Confessions. So that's the book that I would say has had the strongest lifetime impact on me.

Soren Schwab (CLT):
Excellent pick, sir. Excellent pick. I just recently reread it. I try to read it every year. And I just finished it a few weeks ago. It is profound. I appreciate your sharing. Once again, we're here with Dr. Greg Miller, who is the president of Malone University. As you heard, a principal, faithful Christian liberal arts university in Northeast Ohio highly encourage you all to check it out and to see for yourself. Visit campus. It's absolutely beautiful. Dr. Miller. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Greg Miller:
Well, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.