Anchored by the Classic Learning Test

The Lost Art of Disagreeing Agreeably | James Fishback

February 22, 2024 Classic Learning Test
The Lost Art of Disagreeing Agreeably | James Fishback
Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
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Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
The Lost Art of Disagreeing Agreeably | James Fishback
Feb 22, 2024
Classic Learning Test

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy and Kimberly are joined by James Fishback, founder of Incubate Debate. The three discuss how debate programs in American public schools have devolved in recent years by stifling free and honest speech. They explore the merits of debate as a way to assess the long-term consequences of immediate ideas. They also lament the lost art of disagreeing civilly but point to Incubate Debate and other Christian debate leagues as necessary, encouraging solutions. 

Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy and Kimberly are joined by James Fishback, founder of Incubate Debate. The three discuss how debate programs in American public schools have devolved in recent years by stifling free and honest speech. They explore the merits of debate as a way to assess the long-term consequences of immediate ideas. They also lament the lost art of disagreeing civilly but point to Incubate Debate and other Christian debate leagues as necessary, encouraging solutions. 

Jeremy (00:04.075)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast. Happy to welcome two exciting guests today. We have for the first time with us, James Fishback. James is the founder and the executive director of Incubate Debate, a no-cost middle and high school debate league that champions merit, civility, and open debate. Incubate envisions debate where young men and women don't compete against one another, but compete with, learn from, and inspire one another instead. We're also here with Kimberly Farley, our resident homeschool.

and debate expert, I would say, here at CLT. Kimberly has hosted a number of Anchor Pods herself. Kimberly, James, welcome. Thanks for being with us today.

James Fishback (00:44.27)
It's a real pleasure, Jeremy.

Kimberly Farley (00:45.445)
Thanks, Jeremy. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jeremy (00:48.895)
James, I'd love to start off with you and hear a little bit about kind of your bio. I know you went to Georgetown for undergrad before leaving early to go to a hedge fund. Clearly you've got an interest in the debate world, but we kind of start before that, where you public schooled, homeschooled, Christian schooled, what was school like for you growing up?

James Fishback (01:09.362)
For me, I was a public school kid my entire life, from kindergarten all the way to high school. And that fortunately was supplemented by a very strong Roman Catholic school during the weekend and then during the week as well. And so I was fortunate that I actually had some really good teachers growing up in public school, specifically in high school. But I was fortunate that a lot of that was additionally supplemented by a very strong Christian education.

Jeremy (01:40.839)
It's fantastic. And this whole world of debate, you're so passionate and we've talked about this offline. We're going to talk in this pod about what is happening to debate in American education. How did you discover this and that you had a great love for it?

James Fishback (01:56.69)
I've, my parents always said I had the gift of gab. And what I struggled with though, was I had a really bad speech impediment growing up. And so I would stutter at the beginning of every sentence. And I never overcame it until I started competing on my high school debate team. I was actually just thrown on the debate team. I don't, it was assigned into the class as an extracurricular. I wasn't thrilled about it until I actually started understanding what debate represented. And the idea of

competing, bringing your own research and going against some smart people, not just in my own county, but across the state. That was a really powerful and exciting idea. So I was on my debate team for four years. It challenged me like nothing else has to date. And I'm just grateful for that opportunity. I actually came back to the high school debate world after leaving Georgetown. And I started a debate team at an underserved high school in North Miami. I had an all black team.

Jeremy (02:27.028)

James Fishback (02:56.27)
from 2017 to 2019 of just incredible students. And the debate that I came back to, Jeremy and Kimberly, was not the debate that I left. It had been transformed into a highly ideological event, an echo chamber. The two sides of a debate that were really only allowed were the moderate left and the far left. And so the first example I kind of got whacked in the face was a young student of mine's first tournament.

Jeremy (03:21.675)
Thank you.

James Fishback (03:25.918)
was criticized by the judge and given the loss because he criticized the BLM organization as being anti-family and anti-community really. And the judge point blank told him after the round during feedback, you would have won the debate had you not condemned BLM. And so that was really the beginning of a discovery that high school debate wasn't what it was.

Jeremy (03:46.561)
Incredible, incredible.

Jeremy (03:52.623)
Incredible incredible. So Kimberly I want to ask you because I'm an outsider. I don't know about this whole world of debate I'm embarrassed. I don't think I've ever

been to a debate. I've only watched like presidential debates and from what I hear, those aren't really debates either, especially the last one that we have with Donald Trump and Joe Biden. That was something entirely different that the whole country suffered through together. Kimberly, what do you just in terms of being an educator, what happens in debate when it's done right in terms of the formation of a young person?

Kimberly Farley (04:07.17)
No, they're not.

Kimberly Farley (04:24.601)
Yeah, I love debate. A coach that we followed for a long time defined it as the great subject list subject, you know, from Aristotle, we get this, like when we get to this stage where you're taking everything that you know, you're pulling from every topic you've ever read about, even thinking about the non-fiction or the fiction stories that you have read and the examples of those characters being able to pull in all of that information together.

and then to get a response because debate is not just informed by, you know, the policy walks, right? We can, we can get really technical and get in there on all the policy, but there's always value and virtue at the center of why are we making decisions? And it's this whole thing, ideas have consequences, right? So regardless of what we're debating, we're having to think about the ethics of it. We're having to think about the broad implications of it.

whether it's policy or a value debate, whatever it is, like there's wide range of consequences. And so debate really forces our students to start thinking about not just the immediate, but the long-term implications of what they are proposing. It's also really good at getting students to question what they read. There is nothing like the motivation of I have to have something to say. And so I've got to critically think very quickly about what my opponent just said.

But debate teaches listening as much as it teaches speaking. And so you're listening, you're critiquing, you're analyzing, you're going back, what is the motivation for the person who wrote this article? Is there a better source for this? There are so many skills and even the academic skills of citation and evidence and giving credit where credit is due, like it's just.

There's so many things that it brings in. It was by far the richest thing that we did in our homeschool academically because it brought everything that we had done together.

Jeremy (06:21.927)
Wow. James, what would you add to that? My understanding is you are a national debate champion. Is that accurate?

James Fishback (06:28.97)
I was, yeah.

Jeremy (06:34.127)
And when you think about Kimberly's kind of thoughts on how this helps to form a young man or a young woman, how did it kind of shape you when you think back to your high school years and going to Georgetown and now what you're doing now is a 28 year old starting a hedge fund. Tell us about that.

James Fishback (06:52.558)
Well, Kimberly, you're absolutely right about the tremendous benefits that debate offers. I think one thing it does exceptionally well is that it teaches young people how to listen. And so my 96-year-old grandmother always reminds me that we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. We should be listening twice as often as we're speaking. And so you have to listen to the other side to be able to respond to their arguments well.

Jeremy (07:16.263)
That's great.

James Fishback (07:20.258)
And so on top of teaching young people how to speak persuasively, which is much more important than, you know, a skill that you would need to run for office or to be a litigator, but skills that you, Jeremy and Kimberly, we use every single day, whether we're presenting at conferences or speaking to parents or whatever it may be. But aside from speaking persuasively, listening intently is another. And the final one, especially important given the events of the last couple of weeks, is to disagree agreeably.

to have conversations with civility. That is what debate teaches us to do. It's to separate the message from the messenger. As someone who's spent the last couple of years working with thousands of kids on Incubate Debate, I can tell you that so much of the division among young people in this country is just due to a knowledge gap, that they're not even in the same room as the people they so vehemently disagree with, they've never even met them. And so debate brings this wide range of opinions and perspectives into the same room to have an honest, respectful conversation.

and it's magical what happens as a result.

Jeremy (08:24.011)
Kimberly, as an outsider, I would have thought that if there's one thing that could not be captured by this kind of new ideology, that it would be debate. That's the whole point, is debating different positions. But James, you've exposed, you put this out on Twitter, some videos that have kind of gone viral, it has been captured. Tell us, how did this happen? What is going on? And what is your ex handle, by the way? Because folks need to follow you if they're not already.

James Fishback (08:53.866)
Yeah, they can follow me at j underscore fishback, just how it sounds. I got billied a lot for that name in middle school. So I own it today. I really do own it. Um, the decline in high school debate is astonishing to your point, Jeremy. It is the great irony that you can't even debate on the debate team anymore. And so two videos that I posted recently talk about actually their videos of national final rounds in high school debates and really prestigious tournaments.

where students hijacked the round, neglected the assigned topic and said, look, we're not gonna debate that, we're gonna debate what we wanna debate. And then made the round about MAGA Republicans, so-called MAGA Republicans participating in transgenocide instead of a debate about the International Monetary Fund. Another round where the students actually attacked the other team, not because of their arguments, but because of who they were. They attacked them for being white and said that because of their whiteness, they should lose the debate.

And so this for me has been the last six months of chronicling in detail what exactly has happened in high school debate. I started in May and in June writing for the Free Press where they published two pieces about the fall of high school debate. I'll leave you with just one example of the type of judging that happens these days and how that actually emboldens and encourages the kind of behavior I just mentioned, the anti-white attack and the hijacking and making it about so-called transgenocide.

one judge who was actually a national college champion a couple of years ago, remind students before the debate, this is before the debate, tells them that the judge is a quote, Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, and as a result can no longer vote for arguments that are pro-Israel, pro-capitalism or pro-police. So imagine a judge, the so-called neutral third party, telling 13 and 14 year olds before the debate on Israel,

Jeremy (10:33.794)
Thank you so much.

James Fishback (10:48.286)
or before the debate on police funding, that no matter what you say, you are going to lose because their personal ideology cannot be checked at the door. And so these are just a couple of examples of the systemic rot that has happened at the National Speech and Debate Association. As much as I don't wanna wax poetically about what's happening too much, I'm really focused on building the alternative, which I believe there are many of them, but I believe that here in my home state, that's incubate debate.

Jeremy (11:18.923)
We want to talk a lot more about incubate debate. Kimberly, I'm hoping, I'm praying, that maybe at least in the homeschool world, debate hasn't been hijacked. Tell us about that a bit more. Is it as competitive? Is it more competitive than some of the other options? And where would you recommend families who are interested in exploring this and taking first steps, where would you point them?

Kimberly Farley (11:46.241)
Yeah, I would say definitely look at what James is doing with the incubate debate. That sounds fabulous. But there are two big leagues that CLT actually partners with both of the homeschool leagues, Stoa Speech and Debate and NCFCA. NCFCA does both homeschool as well as school students. So those are two Christian homeschool debate leagues. I'm sorry, Christian debate leagues.

And so I would say that's a great option. And those are national leagues. They are very competitive. Those students go on to college and do very, very well. They're winning national championships in different collegiate debate organizations. And collegiate debate has also been hijacked in many ways, but there are still those pockets where you can find some sound logic happening.

But yeah, I would love to hear more about Incubate. I've looked at the website, James. It looks really interesting because you're not doing the traditional like team policy, Lincoln Douglas, like really going outside the box and doing some different things to host more of a conversational form of debate. Is that correct?

James Fishback (12:56.03)
It is, it is. And Kimberly, you're spot on with the two other leagues that you mentioned. You know, there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of debate. The problem is, is the way that the national governing body, which controls the vast majority of high school debate, the NSDA, the way they're doing it. I think the rot, there's a couple of places you could trace it, but the biggest one is who the judges are. And so when you have judges like Lila Lavender, the self-avowed Marxist Leninist Maoist, who cannot check that bias at the door and she proudly wears it.

then you no longer have a debate, you have an echo chamber. And so that's that, but yeah, I agree with you 100%. We need alternatives and much like CLT is an alternative to what the college board is offering, I believe that Incubate and the leagues that you mentioned, Kimberly, are a robust alternative to what the NSDA is offering.

Jeremy (13:46.951)
Kimberly, how does it work in the Christian homeschool debate world? If a student wants to, are they allowed to take a position that is anti-Christian? Maybe they want to defend. They want to take a position that Jesus was not fully God, just a really, really good person. Or maybe they want to. Yeah. Can students and do students take those? How does that work?

Kimberly Farley (14:08.421)
So I can't speak to every situation. What I will say is that the topics that they're debating largely are more neutral as far as like let's talk about policy. So for instance, you may be debating energy policy or you may be debating trade policy. So those are the kinds of policy things and those don't get so much into the, I guess, Christian anti-Christian kind of ideas.

But I will say in both of those leagues, I've served in both of those leagues, judged in both of those leagues, and they are, the students really do get punished for not sticking to the topic in a homeschool and Christian debate. So I will say that. If you want to take a position that's wildly anti-Christian, most of the time your judges are not going to be favorable toward that. So as much as we tell judges to check their bias at the door,

base it only on what students are saying in the round and how they're responding to one another. It's difficult as a judge to completely check your own bias and your own thoughts. You know, you try and write a ballot that's really geared only to what the students have said. But yeah, I would say for the most part, at least the two leagues that I mentioned, STOA and NCFCA are both really good at making students stick to the topic and actually debate the merits of what they're talking about.

Jeremy (15:34.087)
James, I'm something of a GK Chesterton junkie and Chesterton's folks who watched him debate, say that he understood the position of his adversaries better than they understood it. He understood all the implications downstream. And I really can't think of maybe anything better that we need right now as a country than that ability to enter into another perspective, to see the holes in it, to maybe check the holes in your own thinking.

you're doing with incubate debate. Tell us a bit more about the vision for this and how students and parents can get involved.

James Fishback (16:11.342)
Absolutely. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, the whole point is, even if you're not going to change your mind, even if you are steadfast in your conviction about carbon tax or about Roe v. Wade or whatever it may be, that you still can entertain and just understand the other side and think so much of what's happening right now is a lack of understanding of what the other side represents. And so our model of debate to Kimberly's point is as a much more conversational model.

And the reason why is because when I remember I was in high school, I became the debate captain my junior year. And so my job was to go corral everybody and try to get new people on the debate team. And I found a lot of people, people who told me they were interested in politics, who watched CNN and watched crossfire with their parents every so often, and people who just were outspoken. So they had about 15, 20 kids at my first debate meeting and I was walking them through the rules and the technicalities and the this and the jargon and the rigidity.

And well, let's just say there were not 20 people at the second meeting, there were two. And so just to think about that for a second, there was a group of people that were excited about debate, lowercase debate. But when they got to understanding what debate actually was in practice, they left. And they were intimidated not by the rigor of debate, not about the competition of ideas, the battle of ideas.

they were intimidated about the needless complexity, rigidity and jargon. And so Incubate is founded, if anything, on one sentence. Debate should be easy to learn, but hard to master. It should be accessible, but it should not compromise rigor. And so our three formats are called Town Hall, Roundtable and Tribunal. And whereas in traditional high school debate, you might need to spend almost six months as I did my freshman year.

learning just the rules of the game, you could understand the rules of incubates formats in about half an hour. And one of our flagship formats is called Roundtable. So imagine the view, I know you're a big fan of watching the view and Whoopi Goldberg, Jeremy, but imagine the view and imagine every day, every day, and imagine the view, but with eight high school students. And instead of the view singular, it's the views plural.

Jeremy (18:22.827)
Every day, every day.

James Fishback (18:34.654)
And so there's a 20 minute debate where eight high school students are up there, sitting down, having a debate about whether there should be a carbon tax or whether federalism continues to be a force for positivity in the U S government. Having that debate with only three rules, as opposed to hundreds, the three rules are no standing up, no written material. And the third rule, the last rule is the golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated.

So it's a free form debate. Anybody can ask questions, interject, offer an opinion, respond, rebut, take a poll, take a survey of their fellow panelists. And those are the kind of debates that happen in America every single day. They're not highly structured. It's not two on two. It's not you get three minutes and I get two minutes to respond. It's a natural organic debate. And as a result, that's why we've seen so many students join Incubate Debate, especially from micro schools, home schools and classical schools.

because they recognize that debate should be accessible and they just wanna debate. They don't wanna get caught up in all this, first rebuttal, second solvency, this, that and the other. They wanna have a battle of ideas and I think Incubate offers that to them.

Jeremy (19:47.647)
James, I'm wondering, as you imagined this and what the problem was and how to solve it, if you had a chance to kind of survey history, were there some golden ages of debate where you felt like it led to societal flourishing in some ways that we've lost? And what are some of those time periods you look back on favorably?

James Fishback (20:07.682)
There are honestly, Jeremy, there are too many to count. Our nation was founded on free speech and open debate, right? The Continental Congress, a lot of debate happening there. That was the birth of a nation. The Constitutional Convention, a lot of debate there. And that was the birth of the most important document in human history, the strongest guarantor of freedoms. Again, it didn't give us those freedoms. God gave us those freedoms. It protected the freedoms that God gave us. Think about the civil rights era.

debates that happened on the Senate floor that produced important legislation that write that righted a lot of wrongs. And then I also think about high school debate. I think about my time and just traveling the state and sometimes the country. I think about one debater in particular who does a lot of debate, if you could call it that, the 1984 national high school debate champion was Neil Gorsuch. And what an incredible leader he has become.

Jeremy (21:02.165)

James Fishback (21:03.306)
And I think an advocate for civic engagement, Justice Gorsuch actually joined Incubate Debate for a conversation with about 150 of our students last summer to talk about the importance of civility in America today. And so when I think of someone like that, I think of someone like Justice Gorsuch, I think of someone like Milton Friedman or someone like Justice Scalia, who represents the best of debate, is that you don't have beef with the person, you have beef with the idea, you don't attack the person, you attack the argument.

and you do it with respect and with grace. And so even when Justice Gorsuch is engaging in some pretty heated oral arguments and questioning opposing counsel, he maintains that civility and grace, as did Milton Friedman, as did so many others in the great debates of our time. You look at the Federalist Papers, they weren't really papers, they were just written debates that were happening about some really big ideas in the country. And so debate is what America was founded on. And I think more than anything,

to see the fall of high school debate is actually mirroring the fall of debate in society today. I mean, we don't have to look at just, we don't have to go too far back in history to see the disastrous effects of a lack of debate. Look at what's happened in the country. We didn't have a debate really about forced masking of children. And look at what's happened with the spike of speech language pathologists actually seeing children with these types of disorders, especially toddlers.

We didn't have a debate about forced vaccination for young, healthy college men and women and look at what's happening there with the spikes in myocarditis. We didn't have a debate really about lockdowns. We weren't allowed to because we were oftentimes censored or even de-amplified on social media. And so we are dealing with the effects now with the drop in literacy across the country. And so when we don't have debate, when we can't talk about issues, we can never solve them.

And so for me, I'm coming at this because I'm excited. I care about high school debate, but more importantly, I care about the decline of debate in the country.

Kimberly Farley (23:09.545)
I agree 100% James. Just, I read not too long ago, Jeremy, I know this is one of your books that you like to recommend too, is the Coddling of the American Mind, right? And they're talking about this issue. Yeah, and one of the things that they recommend as a solution is actually getting high school students to debate, but it has to be in a format that would actually allow them to actually have different opinions, right?

Jeremy (23:09.948)

Jeremy (23:20.031)
So good, yeah, Jonathan Hyatt, oh yeah.

Thank you.

Kimberly Farley (23:35.637)
not what is currently happening in a lot of high school, at least the public school league and SDA. But this is a crucial thing. One of the things that I've always found remarkable, we've been in Christian debate leagues for, I think this is my 11th year doing it. And one of the things that I would say is that the kids are great friends. They can go and have a rigorous debate. They can really debate hard at the ideas, have a...

a fierce debate, they both want to win, they're both competitive, right? But they walk out and they're great friends and they're hanging out. And so if we can foster that kind of discussion where we can robustly debate ideas, disagree fiercely, and we still appreciate each other as fellow image bearers of God, as people who are worth having this discussion with, it will change our lives, you know, our families, our communities on all these different levels.

people kind of laugh because my family is known as debaters at the dinner table, right? When all the kids are together, there will be controversial things said, but we leave the dinner table just as happy with one another as when we sat down to it. And so that is the idea that we have to be able to get that through to our society as a whole, if we really hope to protect our democracy.

James Fishback (24:56.75)

Jeremy (24:57.983)
Love that. James, final question for you, and Kimberly, maybe I'll have a comment on this as well. I think everyone in the K-12 space and K-16 actually is thinking through, is having to go back and kind of think about first principles in education with the way AI is promising to disrupt everything.

And it seems like there has to be a growing interest, just given that, in debate, at least in Socratic discussions. Are you seeing that, Kimberly, are you seeing that? James, are you seeing that?

James Fishback (25:29.798)
I am, and what I'm most excited about is not filling up an auditorium with incubate debate students on a Saturday. I think that's gonna be great, but that's not gonna move the needle in a material way to actually give students the skills they need to succeed. What we really need to do is bring debate centered instruction into the classroom. In the same way we don't outsource creative writing to the creative writing club.

Same way we don't outsource physical education at high schools to the fitness club or to the football team. We should not outsource the art of debating, the art of conversation to just the debate club. And so my long term goal, Jeremy, to tell you the truth, is to bring the power of the incubate debate model, conversational debates, accessible debates, rigorous debates into the classroom. Imagine being in a U.S. history class and debating.

whether the US's role in Vietnam was wise or not. Imagine being in a US government class and debating the very essence of federalism, especially in light of what we know over the last couple of years. Being an environmental science class, debating nuclear versus solar, right? And so this is a really interesting way to engage with students, both in a formative and summative assessment landscape. And so I think in the best of worlds, incubate debate as a debate format, as a Saturday tournament,

penetrate, we might get 1% in the most optimistic scenario of young men and women in the country involved. But if we can bring this magic to the classroom, to classical schools, to micro schools, to public schools, wherever, we can bring debate, we can reach every single one of them and we can send them off after graduation as engaged citizens, as persuasive speakers, and as really good listeners who will be well-trained to inherit the country that they will soon inherit and have those skills to succeed.

Jeremy (27:30.535)
Awesome, awesome. James, final question for you. We always end the Anchor podcast talking about books, the books that have been most formative for our guests. Maybe there's even some books about debate in this great ancient art form. Kimberly, we'd love to hear from you on this one as well. So why don't we do that first? Are there books on debate that everybody should read who's interested in exploring this world?

James Fishback (27:53.206)
Well, Kimberly, why don't you go ahead? And I'm curious to actually hear about what you've been reading in this front.

Kimberly Farley (28:00.621)
Yeah, I think you have to go back to the ancients, right? You got to go back to Aristotle. There was a lot of misinformation by this office. And so when I talk about debate, I talk about Aristotelian rhetoric, and that's kind of the approach that we use. I've learned a lot just from going and sitting under various coaches and teachers that have done it very well, who have a high value on ethics.

Because that, for me, that's the big thing, is are we trying to elevate our audience to truth always? Like, it doesn't do any good to persuade people to something that isn't true, right? That's a selfish way of viewing persuasion and debate. The pursuit ought to be to elevate the rhetoric to the point that our audience is better informed and can make better decisions. And so truth has to be a motivator behind all of that. So I love looking at...

Aristotelian rhetoric and what was taught there. So that's always my go-to is let's go back to the ancients who did it really well.

Jeremy (29:04.117)

James Fishback (29:05.534)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Kimberly. And I think part of it too, to your point, is the goal here is truth. That is the goal. The goal is truth and equipping students to recognize what is true and what is not. I'll give you one book recommendation, which I read in high school and I probably read every year or so. And that is Language, Thought and Action by S.I. Hayakawa, which is actually a US Senator.

He was the president of UC Berkeley in the 1940s, and he was a linguist. And so it isn't a debate book per se, but it's a linguistic book. It's a lot about the ideas that are then represented in debate. And that's a fantastic read. And I think one thing too is just watching videos of great debates and seeing how people carry themselves. So the Milton Friedman debates of the 80s where he would go to college campuses, challenge him. Thomas Sowell as well.

Jeremy (29:38.283)

Jeremy (29:58.34)

James Fishback (30:04.362)
the old Reagan debates from, you know, Reagan Mondale, for example, in 84 was just a really great debate and how Reagan handled that question about his age. And so part of it too is, you know, it's kind of like swimming. There's a lot of good swimming books, but

Jeremy (30:17.343)
I will not hold the age of my phone against them. Yeah.

James Fishback (30:20.926)
Exactly. And so I think, you know, as much as I there's so many great books in this subject, I do think that really the best way to understand debate, to appreciate it, to really think about it at a high level is to watch debates yourself, right? You can read about swimming. That only gets you so far. You actually have to watch really good swimmers. And so watching Milton Friedman, watching Reagan, watching some of the renditions of the original Lincoln-Douglas debates from the 1850s.

Those are powerful, powerful examples of where we need to be, where we once were as a country when it came to free inquiry and open debate, and where we can be once again. I view that as kind of our North Star. Let's get there. Let's have that kind of conversation again.

Jeremy (31:04.731)
Love it. Love it. James, this is so important, the work that you're tackling. Kimberly Farley, as always, and folks, Kimberly has, you really started doing more speaking, traveling, meeting with groups as well. You are a treasure here at CLT, and we're grateful for your advocacy of debate as well. James, folks want to find out more about Incubate Debate. One more time, can you kind of just state the website and where to go?

James Fishback (31:30.798)
Absolutely, And if they want to drop me a line directly, it's just james at Would love to connect, would love to have, share ideas about how we can take this model to more and more students across the country.

Jeremy (31:46.675)
James Kimberly, thank you for being with us.

James Fishback (31:48.866)
Thank you, Jeremy. Real pleasure.

Kimberly Farley (31:49.381)
Thank you.