Anchored by the Classic Learning Test

How To Transform American Culture | Krystyn Schmerbeck

April 04, 2024 Classic Learning Test
How To Transform American Culture | Krystyn Schmerbeck
Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
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Anchored by the Classic Learning Test
How To Transform American Culture | Krystyn Schmerbeck
Apr 04, 2024
Classic Learning Test

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy is joined by Krystyn Schmerbeck, the Director of Graduate Studies in Classical Education at Benedictine College. The two talk about how Krystyn’s experience in the religious community has informed her educational philosophy. They dive into her advice for Catholic schools trying to remain faithfully Catholic, and the power of a classical education master’s program to transform American culture. With the application deadline coming up soon, they also talk about Benedictine’s ideal candidate for their master’s program. 

This year, Benedictine is hosting the Institute for Catholic Liberal Education (ICLE), National Conference. Click here to learn more or register for their waitlist.

Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy is joined by Krystyn Schmerbeck, the Director of Graduate Studies in Classical Education at Benedictine College. The two talk about how Krystyn’s experience in the religious community has informed her educational philosophy. They dive into her advice for Catholic schools trying to remain faithfully Catholic, and the power of a classical education master’s program to transform American culture. With the application deadline coming up soon, they also talk about Benedictine’s ideal candidate for their master’s program. 

This year, Benedictine is hosting the Institute for Catholic Liberal Education (ICLE), National Conference. Click here to learn more or register for their waitlist.

Jeremy Tate (00:02.89)
Welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. We are here today with Kristin Schmurbeck. Dr. Kristin Schmurbeck is the Director of Graduate Studies in Classical Education at Benedictine College. Originally from Rochester, New York, she's traveled far and wide in the search for truth. After studying classical languages and philosophy as an undergraduate,

Kristen ventured into public policy and eventually the religious life before discovering her vocation as a Catholic educator. Over the past 12 years, Kristen has served as a teacher, a principal, and an instructional coach in both diocesan and classical schools. Kristen holds a master's degree in public policy from George Washington University, a master's degree in Catholic school leadership from Marymount University in Virginia.

and is currently enrolled in doctoral studies at the University of St. Thomas in Houston. Kristen, great to see you. Thanks for being with us.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (00:56.342)
Great to see you too, Jeremy. Happy to be here today.

Jeremy Tate (01:00.908)
Awesome. So I was just so impressed. I was out at Benedictine with about 20 college counselors, maybe in October. And we met, you know, for the first time there. We're so impressed just to hear you speak about classical education, the vision for education at Benedictine College. It's amazing, amazing. So I want to get into all of that today. But I'm always interested, Kristen, to kind of first hear from our guests, you know, how did you discover this great tradition? What was your own education like growing up?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (01:10.55)
Mm -hmm.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (01:30.518)
Sure. Well, growing up, I did go to, I went K through sixth grade or pre K through sixth grade at the Catholic school in my hometown of Rochester. I was actually in a tiny little suburb. And, but you know, as does sometimes happen, cost is a factor. I'm the oldest in a family and I was able to finish through sixth grade. Both of my sisters went into the public school earlier on in their education. So for middle school and high school, I was actually in our local public school. So I sort of had a,

a range of experiences. And then I have now officially done, you know, private Christian sort of non -denominational education, public university, Catholic university. And now I'm at a gigantic Catholic university studying virtually. So I've, I feel as if I've dipped my toe in all of the different waters, except for something truly classical, which I discovered in my first teaching job. And so it's been interesting as you grow up.

you start to look back at your own education through a different lens. And as society changes, you're like, okay, this is so different from what I experienced when I was a teenager. And yet also the education I'm willing to like that I can give as a teacher to students is different still. And having to really wrestle with how I learned, how I teach and how I want my students to learn and how I am the nexus and the one I have to change. If I want my students to learn great things,

I might have to change the way I'm teaching it, you know, because I am teaching the way I was taught. And sometimes I was taught very much in that model of here's a bunch of information, analyze, apply it, spit it back to me. And I learned a great deal and I loved studying and I was a big nerd, huge nerd. And maybe that's why I ended up eventually back at the college level, but it's been a fun journey. And I'm grateful that I've had such a wide range of educational experiences.

Jeremy Tate (03:30.092)
You spent time in religious life. What was that period like in terms of forming your vision for what education is?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (03:38.806)
That's a great question. So I think one of the great things for me about religious life was that the community I was in was very much steeped in Thomistic philosophy. And so that was my very first real experience digging deep into Thomism. I was not in a Dominican community, but I encountered a lot of Dominicans in and around that time. And then that sort of continued as I left the community and went into the educational world. In addition,

There was a great love for catechesis and working with children, particularly children of diverse backgrounds in Hispanic communities and communities with a lot of diversity. And so I have a great heart for ensuring that high quality Catholic classical education gets to all children, not just to, you know.

certain pockets, I think there's a great conversation that's already going on. And we were fortunate here at Benedictine. We had Dr. Anika Prather here just a couple of weeks ago before she was at Great Hearts and leaning into some of those tough, oh, she's wonderful. I had not met her in person yet. And so when I got to meet her on campus and just sit with her and have one -on -one conversation for 10 minutes, you know, and it's just this great passion for.

Jeremy Tate (04:41.9)
He's a dear friend. Yes, love her.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (04:58.102)
She really has a way of speaking about how classical education can and does equip everyone because of the things that unify us, because of our universal human nature, that this sort of education can bring us to greater unity. But it has to be available to everyone or else it becomes something that increases division.

Jeremy Tate (05:17.068)
That is so well said. Now, Kristen, I want to kind of wrestle through this question with you for a few minutes. You've thought about this a lot. I think folks that live and breathe education and ideas, I think maybe we're confusing folks that don't have the time to do that, right? Is classical education and authentically Catholic education, are we talking about the same thing?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (05:27.606)
Mm -hmm.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (05:35.35)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (05:44.31)
Woo, that is the question of the moment, right?

Jeremy Tate (05:47.212)
Ha ha.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (05:50.038)
I think that authentically Catholic education has to encapsulate, like has to, I think classical is part of the story. And then when it becomes authentically Catholic, it's the fullness of truth. I mean, I think that you can't understand what classical education is getting at if you don't look at it through the lens of Jesus Christ. And so I think there's a sense in which they are extremely complimentary and the...

I struggle when I talk about classical education, I was like, okay, we're studying creation, we're studying reality, but we now live in a postmodern world where reality, objective reality is not a foregone conclusion. I've had conversations with educators here in Atchison, Kansas that teach at our elementary schools. And we're wondering if we have to start teaching explicitly that reality is objectively there and that we can know it, which was something that.

obviously the classicist, Socrates, Aristotle, that was a foregone conclusion. That wasn't something they questioned. And so there's this sense where, for me, if you don't have that grasp on, there is an external reality that I can know because of the senses I've been endowed with by my creator.

Jeremy Tate (06:49.036)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (07:04.854)
I struggle to, where is the bastion of objective truth without some sense of a rootedness in creator creation, which has become fundamentally Christianized language. You don't have a lot of non -Christian or, well, I guess anti -religious, who's talking about objective reality out there? And right now it's really the people talking about objective reality are Christians and Catholics.

Jeremy Tate (07:29.93)

Jeremy Tate (07:34.636)
So could we say, would it be a true statement to say that Catholic education is always, authentically Catholic education is always classical, that classical education may not always be Catholic? Is that fair?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (07:50.678)
I think you can say that. I think what I'm interested in is one, I think there are, because classical education or authentically Catholic education was not available to a couple of generations of Catholics, I want to be very careful because there are a lot of extremely hardworking teachers in our Catholic schools that have a great heart and want to educate the children in their classrooms. And so I want to be careful because I think,

We do teach the way we're taught. We haven't, we're rediscovering, we're renewing our commitment to what authentically Catholic education is. And so there's a sense where there are fantastic teachers in our Catholic schools. And if they say, well, if you're not authentic, if you're authentically Catholic education has to be classical, they're gonna wave their hands up because classical has, there are.

communities and where this idea of classical education is like you're not going to teach my kids math or you're only going to teach my kids Latin and I'm just that I'm still trying to figure out where that came from because those are those are not true statements. You know classical education is about leaning into human nature and leaning into our understanding of looking at these great thinkers and finding our place within the story of human history within the story of science within the story of math.

All of these things point to objective true reality and there's a great wealth and richness there. And if we reduce it to simply what we can apply and is useful in our life, we're missing out on a huge swath of who we are as human persons and how to live the good life. Those are the questions rooted in every human heart. You know, John Paul the Great talks about all of this. What is in our heart is Jesus Christ, but.

Some of those questions came out in Socrates. Socrates had this deep desire to know what the good life was. Aristotle had this deep desire to understand and to know. I mean, you don't write a book called the physics where you just outline all of these, you write down everything you see and start analyzing and thinking about it just because it's a passing fancy. There's a deep passion there for understanding and for reason. And those are deeply human characteristics.

Jeremy Tate (09:49.836)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (10:06.102)
that unfortunately sometimes in modern society we lose sight of because we have so much information at our fingertips, right? You've heard President Menace say, right? President Menace here at Benedict College, our students are overwhelmed with information. They're information rich and analysis poor. And so we want to cultivate that curiosity, that intellectual wisdom. And to do that, we want to go back and think about the great questions that have been asked and the different answers that have been given.

Jeremy Tate (10:37.58)
Kristen, I gotta tell you, you mentioned President Menace. I'm so excited just about the vision for Benedictine College. I mean, it is one of the most exciting stories. President Menace, and I know that there were some reform happening before he came, but it's incredible. 20 years now, more than doubled the enrollment of the college. I mean, it has become a flagship. I met students on campus.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (10:59.574)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Tate (11:02.668)
that had got into SLU, that had got into Notre Dame, and they were at Benedictine to be a part of this community. It is absolutely just kind of overflowing with the life of Christ, with this community, the sacramental community around the Catholic mass. It's absolutely beautiful what is being built at Benedictine College. And you're building kind of a new dimension of this with this graduate program.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (11:27.766)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Tate (11:28.716)
in classical education. The first time I heard about this, I was thrilled. Where is it at now? Can students already apply for this? Are you looking for current teachers to get a master's degree? Are these kids coming right out of college? Tell us a little bit about the program.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (11:45.494)
Absolutely so this Masters of Arts in Classical Education and we also have a Masters of Arts in Classical School leadership there. There are two parts of a similar coin in a lot of ways and what we're doing here is extending the work of Benedictine College's mission to educate men and women in a community of faith and scholarship. So we're trying to extend that out beyond the borders of Atchison, Kansas. And to transform culture in America.

President Minnis and the visionary thinkers here at Benedictine College understand that education is the key to that transformation. And there is this phenomenal renewal in Catholic education right now from preschool to university, right? And so Benedictine has been building for a long time in its undergraduate programs with great books, with its honors program. They've been building this phenomenal momentum. And so now on top of that, we are recruiting, you know,

new graduates who are going into really want to study. We're seeing this first generation of Chesterton and classical academy students graduating college and wanting to go back and teach at their alma mater's. It's really wonderful. We have a student going into one of our teaching fellowship programs that's associated with our master's degree who graduated from a Chesterton academy and is excited to go back and teach in this classical vein and really kind of take what she's learned in her education and

give it to the next generation. So it's absolutely fantastic. We're starting to see that now. We're looking forward to more of that, but we need to continue to equip them and to give this opportunity to teachers already in the field. I happened upon this idea of classical education when I was a Latin teacher in Northern Virginia. And I started to get frustrated because I was bored and I could see my students just kind of running in their little hamster wheels, like just.

Here's the Latin sentence, I will spit it back to you. I don't know what it means. I can't understand it and I'm not developing any knowledge. And so I said, I gotta do something different. And this is where I discovered really in a new way how to dive in. And I realized as I was thinking about the podcast day, I was like, my best teaching moments were the ones where I stepped away from the textbook I had been handed, where I stepped away from this, like, you have to give me this grades in this time. And I said, we're just gonna do this story and we're gonna lean in.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (14:08.726)
and we're going to go slowly but deeply, right? And we're going to do just this much. We're not going to do all these things. So just thinking about these classical pedagogies, you know, the festina lente and the multum non multa, like hurry slowly and do much, not many, right? And so I think there's this real sense where we can get really into our own. We get to this point as teachers where the burnout is happening because...

We're not engaging in the relationship. We're not deep diving in deep and we're not going to share the things that we're truly passionate about. And so what I'm hoping that this graduate program can do because we are now receiving our first full cohort. We are a summer start. We have applications now until April 15th and all of our courses can be taken one at a time. If you just want to dip your toe in, we have courses in great books for graduate students where you get to read the great books as well as talk about how to lead a seminar discussion in these great books.

We have one of my favorites is our summer Institute on education and the human person. We're one of our professors here takes everyone from way back before Augustine and tracks what we thought about education philosophically and theologically up until modern day going through Dewey and Skinner and looking at how the perspectives have changed over history. Because our anthropology, our understanding of the human person is what drives or what should drive our pedagogy. And this is in alignment with what

the Holy See's teaching in Catholic schools. One of the very first ones is to be grounded in an authentic Christian anthropology into a supernatural vision of the human person. That is what has to drive it. So that's the foundation of our program is making sure we understand who the human person is and how that impacts the way we teach. And then we do go into some practical pedagogy. So we dip the toe in. How do we, what does math in a classical classroom look like? What is science?

Jeremy Tate (15:53.74)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (16:03.51)
all of those different things. Been reading about Benedictine education for 1500 years. John Cardinal Newman has a book out. Well, Clooney has republished his essays on Benedictine education and it's fascinating to look at. How do we get this? Let them be born in wonder. How do we allow students to lean into these great things that came out of programs like the integrated humanities program at KU? How do we bring all this together and give our teachers this gift to reignite their passion for teaching and learning and?

Jeremy Tate (16:26.668)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (16:33.595)
empowering this next generation of great thinkers to truly transform culture in America. So I'm going to do that with a graduate program.

Jeremy Tate (16:39.594)
Chris and I, I've talked.

I love it, and this is so needed. It's so needed that you're doing this. This is the crisis facing so many great classical schools as teachers, right? They've got a great vision. But I've even met with a number of heads of school that have said, look, we actually view teacher certification from the big ed schools as a liability. It signals they've probably ingested a bunch of bad ideas about...

Krystyn Schmerbeck (16:55.284)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Tate (17:09.996)
what education is, what a child is, what we're trying to do here. And I'm wondering, the Catholic school teacher who's maybe been in the classroom for 20 years, she loves her students, she loves the church. I find that sometimes classical education can be very, in some ways it can be harmful at times or hurtful when it can, instead of,

Krystyn Schmerbeck (17:21.878)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Jeremy Tate (17:36.592)
encouraging that teacher, helping them make some adjustments can sometimes discourage or even undermine the work that they've been doing for so long. I've heard a lot of stories about this and I think it's led to some misperceptions about the movement as a whole. How do you advise a school who is faithfully Catholic, working to be more faithfully Catholic, but is wanting to really embrace

Krystyn Schmerbeck (17:49.846)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Tate (18:02.878)
a classical vision for education over the modern secular progressive school system.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (18:10.198)
Sure. I think the first step is to...

really encourage the teachers to first have an open mind and present something simple, especially at the K -8 level, because I think there's something of it at the high school level. There's an eagerness as newer teachers come in. There's this desire to talk about questions and to dig deeper. And then when you get to the K -8 level, there is this real challenge, but something as simple as what's called a picture story.

It's something about putting in, and this was revolutionary. I worked with one teacher at a previous school where we had, I had just one spot to send one teacher. And so I asked that we send this one teacher. And what was fascinating is that teachers get tools. And so they get what's in their toolbox. And so if you start to give them tools that will necessarily engage the spirit of wonder and creativity,

Jeremy Tate (19:14.476)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (19:14.774)
and then start to build like, well, this tool is part of a larger framework and then introduce them to the framework of where you're going with the thing. Because the tool in and of itself, a picture study is this beautiful thing where you put up a picture in front of a group of second graders and you tell them they have two minutes to kind of look at it and absorb and see what stands out to them. And then the picture goes away. And then the teacher asks them questions about what they saw and everybody shares what they saw. And I actually observed this teacher.

And it was fascinating because the teacher at one point and I both had the same thought of, I gotta go back to the picture because the teacher was like, oh, this character was wearing a green outfit. And I'm thinking to myself, he was? I don't remember that. And so you get to see the students become the teachers and the students develop powers of observation that go longer than what it takes to click on an iPhone. And they develop an idea of curiosity and they develop their memory.

And all of a sudden, there are slowly changes are happening in the classroom if you were to institute this one thing more consistently. And what happens is the teacher sees the value in what's going on in their students. And all the teachers in their classes recognize that they are there for the students. There's no teacher that's still teaching in a classroom that's not there because they love their students. Because teaching is getting a bad rap and it gets harder the more we cram standards down people's throats, right? And so giving them this idea of,

Jeremy Tate (20:39.148)
Wow, yeah.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (20:41.61)
Yeah, where you can grab onto something. It's like, wow, my students are engaging. I'm not just having to play Pete and repeat with my students. My student is seeing something new. And when that starts to happen, teachers themselves get curious and say, this is what I've been waiting for. This is the moment.

Jeremy Tate (21:01.804)
That's so well put. This first cohort coming in, are these are current teachers or these, okay, tell us a little bit about the teachers that are coming in and what you're looking for and your ideal candidate who may be listening to this.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (21:06.612)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (21:17.846)
Sure, the ideal candidate is any teacher that is either faced or interested in learning, well, what is this classical education? What is this classical liberal arts Catholic education all about? And I wanna learn more. I want to equip myself to tell my students, but also I want to learn for my own sake. I think one of the challenges is that I sometimes see in my own students and in myself.

We've become so utilitarian. We recognize how little time we have with students. And so we want to make the most of it. And so we're always looking, OK, how can I apply this in my class? How can I apply this in my class? Well, if I read the Canterbury Tales only with an eye to how can I apply this in my class, I'm missing the best part of the Canterbury Tales for myself. And that that experience for myself is actually what's going to fuel my teaching and help my students. So I want teachers who are interested in learning something new for its own sake.

and teachers who are interested in diving into this pedagogy and this idea and what it means in their classrooms. Because there are techniques, but every teacher is different. And so one of the things I love about our pedagogy courses is we have them all semester and students have to develop a practicum project and they get to apply it in their actual classrooms. And it can be modified to fit a K8 classroom, a 912 classroom, an interventionist approach. And so it's...

allowing the instructor of the class to walk side by side with you as you investigate what happens as you investigate what happens next. Because you have to make this your own. As a teacher, you have to make this your own, and so in order to do that, you want to build some confidence. You want to know that you're not in it by yourself, and that's why a cohort is so important. So we're hoping to get a cohort of 10 to 12. Right now we have about half.

We've got an application or two in the pipeline. You know how it is when you put a deadline in something, April 15th is the deadline. So a lot of people are waiting. Okay, is this the button I want to press, right? Am I ready to commit? And I think it really comes down to, we have teachers who are returning to the field. We have homeschooling moms who are getting ready to enter back into the school system when their children get a little bit older.

Jeremy Tate (23:21.26)

Krystyn Schmerbeck (23:37.59)
We have people who remember being classically educated themselves or a lot of Benedictine alum who are like, ooh, I want to try to dip my toe into this water. Or even people with master's degrees who work in school systems that are going in this direction, they're like, I just need a little bit more. So in addition to the two degree programs, we actually have a series of 18 graduate credit sequences that really just focus into, I want to focus in great books. Do I want to focus in classical pedagogy?

Do I want to do a little bit of both? And so it then becomes a supplement. It's not necessarily a certificate program, but it's the idea of a certificate program to just help people already have that master's degree. But they want to be able to give the fullness of this education to their students. They want to understand what's going on and not just to be fed by all of the voices in the echo chamber.

Jeremy Tate (24:28.044)
Now, Kristen, a teacher who may be Catholic, but they're teaching at one of these great classical charters, you know, Founders in Louisville, Texas, or True North in Florida, or the Valor Schools in Texas. Are they good applicants for this program as well?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (24:44.086)
Absolutely, 100%. Even we have a number of applicants who are Christian and it's been fun to lean into some of the conversations about, well, what about this is explicitly Catholic? And is that going to be challenged for me? And I'm excited to see them in our classes because it's going to give our Catholic students a perspective into what a Christian perspective is and help broaden the conversation more generally about our shared unity and human person and our shared belief as followers of Jesus Christ.

So I would even say that Christian teachers would be, in our Christian classical schools, would be fantastic candidates in our program. Because again, these are techniques and thoughts that stem from the human person. And those are going to equip every teacher regardless of where they're teaching.

Jeremy Tate (25:34.026)
This year, this summer, Benedictine College is hosting ICLE. So this is the Institute for Catholic Liberal Education. This is the ACCS kind of of the Catholic world. If you're if you're not Catholic and listening to this, they've done tremendous work now for actually 30 years in terms of helping schools to re -embrace the richness of the tradition.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (25:36.886)
this summer.

Jeremy Tate (25:57.516)
I love that Benedictine is hosting because you're so fully on board with this same vision for education. So definitely, if you're listening to this, check out the website for iSEALI. Tell us a little bit about the conference this summer.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (26:12.438)
Sure, we're very excited. I have been a fan of ICLE since I was working in Lansing, Michigan. I brought them into a high school where I was the principal at the time. And I have just been, perhaps even fangirl might be an appropriate name. I've done some of their programming. I have been delighted. Elizabeth Sullivan was actually here at our Benedictine College Symposium.

just two weekends ago and her and she and Dale Alquist and Ryan Topping talked to us on classic Catholic liberal arts education. And to know that also Bishop Earl Fernandez will be the keynote speaker in the Diocese of Columbus. I'm so excited to be able to host him here. It's going to be four days of some of the best professional formation in classical Catholic liberal arts education that you're gonna find anywhere in the country. It is not to be missed. The speakers are always top notch.

I remember when I was able to attend at CUA two summers ago and I was able to hear Bishop Conley speak and Bishop Daley at the time was heading the committee for Catholic education at the USCCB and they knocked my socks off. And I got to meet educators who are on the ground doing this every day and they were sharing their tips. And so I'm fortunate, I'm going to be able to present a workshop, which I'm very excited about a little bit of Euclidean geometry. I'm calling it the Euclid experience.

I just, I fell in love with Euclid when I got to teach it at the Chesterton Academy last year. And it was really a delightful experience. And so I want to share that with other people because it's not as scary as people think, but there are going to be, you know, I can't even tell you how many presentations, but we are so happy to be hosting it here at Benedictine. Especially after just having Elizabeth Sullivan here, it's getting me more excited. I can't wait, but you got to register soon. They're going to fill up. They are going to fill up.

Jeremy Tate (27:57.644)
Love it.

Jeremy Tate (28:01.324)
Chris, and final question for you. We always end the Anchored Podcast talking about books. There's one book that has had a big impact on your vision for Catholic classical education. What is it?

Krystyn Schmerbeck (28:14.806)
How do people pick just one book? I have to see the one -

Jeremy Tate (28:19.148)
Because everybody breaks the rules. Everybody breaks the rules and they name like ten bucks.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (28:24.054)
Oh, I believe that. So for me, the one that really where everything started to click was the Heart of Culture book out of the Habinger Institute, where they traced the genesis basically of paideia from ancient Greek times into modern times and how it's changed and how the Judeo -Christian mindset kind of melded with the philosophical foundations in ancient Greece. And when I could see the whole picture from start to finish, it just clicked for me. And I was like, I am all in now.

get it from top to bottom, let's go. So that for me was one that synthesized all of it together. But I also have to tell you, I wish I could read all of John Senior's work. The idea of the poetic imagination and poetic knowledge is something we desperately need to recover because that is how we are going to reawaken people's faith lives. If we can't get students to maintain curiosity and imagination, we can continue to expect people to not believe in the real presence because you have to have imagination to believe that the

body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ is in that what looks like a piece of bread. If we don't cultivate and foster that, we're missing out on the beauty and the fullness of creation.

Jeremy Tate (29:33.484)
Again, we're here with Kristen Schmerbach at Benedictine College, who is leading the new graduate program in classical education. Get those applications in quickly. Again, the deadline is April 15th. Kristen, thanks so much for being with us. I never miss ICLE myself, so I look forward to seeing you this summer.

Krystyn Schmerbeck (29:54.102)
Wonderful. I'm excited to have you here again, Jeremy. Thank you so much.