The Priceless Impact of Generosity in Higher Ed | Nicole Dunteman

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Nicole Dunteman, program director of Hope Forward at Hope College. The two discuss the difficulty of capturing virtue and character development in the form of quantitative data. They unpack the Hope Forward program, a cohort of students whose tuition is fully funded by Hope College alumni, and the importance of cyclical generosity and gratitude. They also talk about the program as a solution to the problem of accessibility in classical education and its applicability to a range of other models and aims. 

Transcript

Soren Schwab (CLT) (00:01.601)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we are joined by Nicole Dunteman. Nicole is the HOPE Forward Program Director at HOPE College in Holland, Michigan. Alongside her colleagues, Nicole helps students develop virtues of gratitude, generosity, and hope through integrated and applied learning. She received her MED in College Student Affairs Leadership in 2016.

and has been working at Hope College ever since. Nicole is passionate about removing barriers for student success and human flourishing in college and beyond, and we're so delighted to have her on the podcast today. Welcome, Nicole.

Nicole Dunteman (00:44.406)
Well, thank you for having me, Sora, and this is a delight to talk with you and those who are tuning in.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (00:50.601)
Absolutely, we're very excited. To our listeners, if you're a regular listener and have been for a while of the Anchored podcast, you're familiar with Hope College. We had President Scogin on the podcast a little over two years ago, talking about his journey to the presidency of Hope College, some background on Hope College, and actually also mentioning Hope Forward and the zero-tuition model that we're going to kind of dive into a little bit more today.

with Nicole, but if you would like, obviously you can go back and listen to that episode. Before we get into all that, we always start the Anchored Podcast by talking about our guests' own educational background. So Nicole, I'm really curious, talk to us about your journey. What kind of schools did you attend K-12?

Nicole Dunteman (01:38.766)
Yeah, K-12, I was in a public education, grew up outside of Indianapolis, and so I am a product of public schools, and I had a really wonderful experience. It was a great school system, highly ranked in the state, so I feel really privileged to have grown up with just great teachers and a great learning environment. And then for after...

After high school, I went to Calvin College. I started to find my own faith and found the Christian faith mid high school years. And so I wanted to go to a Christian school, a liberal arts school specifically that would help me.

kind of learn more about theology and religion and the Bible, but also how to apply what I'm learning in the real world. And so I had a great and fantastic experience in college, and then went to Grand Valley State University for my master's in higher education.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (02:43.189)
Wonderful. Yeah, you obviously are at Hope now. I went to Hillsdale and you know, these three small liberal arts colleges and sometimes we say we don't talk about the other ones, right? The other colleges.

Nicole Dunteman (02:57.334)
It is funny. It is so funny that you say that I sometimes because I want you to know I am I bleed blue and orange now through and through so I am all for Hope College, but I Often sometimes when I'm on campus here, I will refer to Calvin as the school that shall not be named Bye at a wonderful fantastic experience at Calvin University as well

Soren Schwab (CLT) (03:16.161)
No.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (03:23.821)
that is wonderful. So Grand Valley, State University, I only have, well I have some memories because we mostly lost them in football except for one year. But they have a good football program. But then you return to Christian Higher Ed. Was that in 2016 when you joined

Nicole Dunteman (03:47.246)
It was, yeah. Right after grad school, when I was doing kind of a nationwide search, I did specifically want a faith-based liberal arts institution. I just... There's something about the...

the development of an 18 to 22 year old. I initially wanted to study elementary education. So in college, that's what I was studying and ended up getting my degree in that and having my teaching certificate. But I love being an educator. I feel like I was born to do that. And yet I started mid college years, really being fascinated with.

what happens in the brain and the development during those college years. And so kind of pivoted and went to higher education, which I still, I'm a teacher at heart. That's what I feel like I do every day. I'm an educator just in a completely different setting than a K through 12 classroom. I get to now be in the co-curricular side of a college and getting, helping students really think about like virtue development and character education.

and kind of those, the soft skill development that students bring with them everywhere they go, whether it's their workplaces, their churches, their neighborhoods, it's who they are, this idea of wholehearted living. And so that's what I'm really excited about and passionate about when we think about student development within the college years.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (05:14.509)
Yeah, it's really interesting. I think that oftentimes at the heart of we, I'm speaking for the liberal arts colleges, we're liberal arts colleges, right? Sometimes we feel like we have to kind of justify like, here's what we're doing, what we're doing. But I feel like oftentimes then, in order to justify it, we still have to point to like the tangible, measurable, the ROI, all those things that really are not at the heart of what we're trying to develop, right? And forming students.

Nicole Dunteman (05:43.792)
Yes.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (05:44.333)
but everyone understands. And so you mentioned kind of the soft skills and the developments, and those really are the things that set students at hope apart from maybe other students. But it is a little bit harder to kind of convey that in a way that families are saying, oh yes, absolutely, I wanna send my kid there. I don't see numbers, like give me the numbers, right? Do you get that? Do you hear that a lot?

Nicole Dunteman (06:09.01)
Oh, absolutely. And it's hard to assess, right? And it's hard to not only tell the story, but it's hard to assess. How do you assess that? And we have, Darrell Ventongren is a colleague of mine and he is a social psychologist and researcher and he's leading our Frost Center, which Frost Center for Data and Research. He's kind of leading the mark on how do we assess hope forward, which we can get into in a second, but how do you assess this idea of virtue development and character education?

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:29.102)
Hmm.

Nicole Dunteman (06:38.804)
some great thinking behind that and in some great structure, but it is challenging to put numbers. It's easier to tell the anecdotal story, right? It's hard to put numbers to what's actually happening, but I get the privilege every day to see it with my own eyes of the change in students and the growth and the learning and that those aha moments in the way that they're not only thinking and perceiving the world, but the way they're living and acting in it.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (07:05.353)
Yeah, I just had a conversation about that yesterday, and it was with a gentleman from Christian Higher Ed. And we talked about hiring. And at CLT, we hire a lot of folks from liberal arts, from Christian colleges. And we both almost at the same time said something along the lines of, they're just different, right? They're just different. And it's hard to, again, like to measure or assess how are they different? Because their resumes might look similar, but maybe just the way they're formed, the way they approach.

life the way they think. And so I'm really, really excited to talk to you about Hope Forward, because I know you guys are thinking about this a lot. And so why don't we start kind of with the basics? What is Hope Forward? What are you doing there at Hope College?

Nicole Dunteman (07:51.958)
Oh, I could talk all day about Hope Forward. So cut me off if you need to, Soren. Hope Forward is our long-term institutional vision to rethink how college is funded. And so you typically think of college funding, it's tuition, it's loans, it's debt. All of those words come with when you think of funding a college, and yet we are trying to do something completely different where we think of a gift-based model for tuition and for-

Soren Schwab (CLT) (07:56.754)
I will.

Nicole Dunteman (08:20.334)
attending college. So what would it look like if every student on our campus received their, the gift of a college education, fully funded.

And then after graduation, if they were participants in giving that experience forward for other students. So we kind of think of it as a crowdfunded model that our alumni would be funding the current students. And then when our current students graduate, they become that alumni base who fund the current students. So this

reciprocity, the cycle of generosity, but it would be it's fully funded gifted tuition, right? So a student received their tuition fully gifted.

and then get to participate in giving that experience to other students. That's what Hope Forward is. We're doing that kind of in two ways on our campus right now. The first is we have students who are receiving this gift fully funded. So we have about 80 students on our campus right now who are receiving their education fully funded and then are going to participate in giving it back. Then we have the rest of our students are receiving what we call anchor tuition.

where we have flattened when the student pays their, whatever cost they're paying their freshman year, that is what they pay for their remaining years. So we're not increasing their tuition every year. We anchor it. And so we like to say that every student is a recipient of hope forward. They're receiving some form of generosity. And this whole model to Sorin is really beautiful because it's all...

Nicole Dunteman (09:55.786)
given by our generous alumni and community. So it's donor funded. So every student who is receiving this, it's because they're receiving it from someone else who generously gave. And then students get to see themselves that one day that will be who they get to be, right? And we know that it's so much better to give than to receive. And so not only do students get to receive this gift, but then they get to be active participants of it after graduation.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (09:58.126)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (10:12.345)
Right.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (10:22.741)
I absolutely love that. Even just the words that you use, it is reframing, rethinking education, right? Do students, the 80 students that are part of this, before they become kind of the hope forward recipients of that gift, do they at that point already have to kind of say, yes, and after my four years, I will reciprocate? Is that something that is something that they will decide on?

before they even join Hope? Or is that something that kind of comes along the way?

Nicole Dunteman (10:56.778)
Yeah, that's a very intuitive question and we are very upfront with our students. This is our model. We don't try to hide what that commitment looks like. So we have...

what's called a covenant that students sign. So when they receive the gift of hope forward, so they receive their gift of their education, we outline what they receive. It actually comes with up to two semesters abroad because we really value the global experience. And then students receive that. And then what they sign is this commitment that says, after graduation, they will give annually and generously back to hope after they graduate so future students can have the same opportunity.

And we are very clear that annual and generous, it is not a number, it is not a percentage amount because then that's just a different flavor of loans and debt and we want this to be radically different. This is rooted in generosity and gratitude, nothing different than that. And so we don't actually ever tell the students a number because a number could be generous to one person and can be.

oppressive to another and that's not generosity, right? Generosity flows from the heart. And so we are really interested then when the students are here and helping them unpack that commitment that they just made at 18, 17, 18, 19, here they are making a lifelong commitment. And so that's probably the first lifelong commitment they have made at this point. And so helping students understand it and unpack it, digest it, rumble with it a bit, but then helping...

Soren Schwab (CLT) (13:14.553)
That's exactly right.

Nicole Dunteman (13:30.262)
Helping them see what does living a life of generosity look like? And I'll tell you what, it's more than just financial generosity. And of course, we talk about finances, and we talk about the money part of financial generosity. But generosity extends way beyond just money, and we talk about that.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (13:38.576)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (13:50.761)
Yeah, well, and I think it, I feel like education is seen so often, especially higher education, just as a transaction, right? It's just a transactional and it becomes impersonal, right? And then, you know, maybe you're saying, oh, yeah, I'm receiving a free education. Well, someone always pays for it, right? Whether it's through taxes or through loans, whatever it might be. It is.

Nicole Dunteman (14:07.392)
Yes.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (14:18.829)
different, right? It seems less transactional in a way, right? Do you feel, and I know one of your, you mentioned, gratitude, right, generosity, gratitude. Is that something that you've noticed now with those scholars? Does it feel different? Is there a tangible kind of impact on those students on how they are receiving that gift of education?

Nicole Dunteman (14:46.51)
Yes, absolutely. And you hit the nail on the head, this transactional feeling that I think many of our students across the nation feel of, I'm paying so much to go to this place. And so then there are different expectations with that. And so we're trying something, not only is this a financial model, but we're trying to reorient ourselves around what does it mean to be a learning community. And learning communities, you.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (15:01.336)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Dunteman (15:13.39)
They're not transactional, they're transformational. And so that's also a piece of Hope Forward is we're trying to really think what does learning community mean and look like? I have some stories students will say to me, because I know someone believed in me. Someone believed in me to receive this and to steward it well and to live it out well and to impact the world with it. And so students are saying those things. They're saying, I'm taking my education more seriously because of it. So I'm hearing those stories. But I know we talked about data. Here's a little data point we've got.

students they all came in at about average GPA compared to their peers who were not receiving Hope Forward and then after a few years here at Hope and in the Hope Forward program their GPAs have risen above their peers which to me tells me that their

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:35.532)
Okay.

Nicole Dunteman (16:46.838)
taking their education seriously. Because one question we get often is, well, are you just paying for the party? Right? Like, are you just, you're giving them this, you're giving them this gift and are they gonna take it seriously? And what I would say is, yes, they're taking it seriously. And in fact, some are taking it even more seriously than if it was something that they were paying for. Because I think they feel, they feel responsible to it.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:49.645)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:54.251)
Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Dunteman (17:16.926)
and not only to really engage and learn while they're here, but after graduation, they get to be the ones who give it to another person. And so I see them so rooted in this idea and really taking it seriously, taking their education seriously and their growth and their change seriously.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (17:26.712)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (17:40.793)
I love that. Let's talk a little bit about access. I mean, the cost of college education is, let's be honest, it's outrageous, right? And we have, right now it is the very bottom heavy kind of, whether you call it a classical education renewal, Christian education renewal with school choice and ESAs. There are more and more students that are immersed in this beautiful liberal arts, classical,

Nicole Dunteman (17:51.086)
outrageous.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (18:10.381)
tradition K-12 and I know that so many of these families want to have their children go on to schools like Hope, right, to Christian colleges, Christian higher education, because they hear what's going on some of the public university campuses. They don't want that, but the number one concern, as you know, is we're never going to be able to afford higher education, right, especially not Christian higher education. Would you're presenting...

is I know it's in the early stages, but could be a solution, a long-term solution to that. Talk a little bit about access and equity and all that. I know there's some buzzwords here in education, but at the same time, you're probably, I'm assuming maybe that's my question, are you finding that students are able to attend Hope College through Hope Forward that otherwise...

probably would not even look at hope.

Nicole Dunteman (19:13.534)
I'm so glad you brought this up because access actually, it is one of our three pillars. So we have three pillars, access, community, and generosity. And this is what we root our vision in. And access is one of them. We think about, you said the Christian liberal arts and how some students and families, they don't even see themselves in this or are able to be a part of it because of that sticker price and who were named Hope College. Like Hope should...

Soren Schwab (CLT) (19:24.333)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Dunteman (19:43.888)
hope we shouldn't be determined to buy a price tag. And so we say like, we need to rethink this. And President Scogin, when he launched this vision, he said, we believe that problems are solvable. And this is a problem in our world is access to education and the barriers, the financial barriers that exist.

to accessing it, the affordability. It's just, it's not, you said it's outrageous and I couldn't agree more. And so President Scogin, when he said, problems are solvable, he said, what if we look to scripture? What if we look to the Bible for how to solve problems? And Mark, there's the verse freely you've received, now freely give, and we're applying that to this problem. We're applying that model. And so for us to access says,

we want to remove that financial barrier. We want to remove that and we want to rethink like who college is for. And I think another really fascinating element to this conversation and to hope forward is that hope forward when we are thinking about who you give the gift to, right?

Right now you think of scholarships, right? And there are types of scholarships that are given in the world, given in higher education. There's merit scholarships. So it's something that you've earned, you've achieved.

There's identity-based scholarships, some part about who you are and your identity you're given money or a scholarship for, and then there's need-based. And all of those are wonderful and good, and yet at Hope Forward, with Hope Forward, we're trying to rethink, is there a different way? Is there a different type? And what we've kind of landed on is this language surrounding impact.

Nicole Dunteman (21:33.718)
Like what if students, what if we looked at their heart? What if we looked at their potential? What if we looked at the impact that they wanna make it in the world? And we give the gift of an education to that, right? To that piece. And we still, if I'm being totally honest, we're rumbling with the language. There's this totally new model. And so we're trying to still figure out how to describe it. But...

It's this idea of how do we find the folks, the students, these young minds who have big dreams, they have big hopes to bring hope to hopelessness, they have big ideas to change the world and they need an education to equip them, to launch them and to prepare them. And so...

I feel like that's another element to this access conversation that I don't think many people when we talk about access, we look specifically at the money piece and the financial access. And yes, we want to do that. We want to address the affordability and access, but we're also we want to think about who comes to our college campuses and how they get here. And so hope forward. I'm sure you're hearing times as I say it. It's a financial model. Yes. But I think there's more to it than that.

that we're still even unpacking as a college campus as we embark on this journey.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:56.669)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, so early in the stages, I guess, of introducing this. I mean, as you're talking, you know, one, I mean, just the passion that you have for this, right? And for the students, I mean, it's contagious. I'm also thinking, you know, there's, I think sometimes as classical educators or Christian educators, sometimes we don't necessarily like the word innovation, because oftentimes innovation is like, oh, that's what the progressives do, right? They always try to come up with new stuff.

But at the same time, as we're looking at K-12 education, there is so much innovation in how we provide access to families, to quality education, whether it's charter schools, micro schools, hybrid schools, small classical Christian schools. There is so much, now we have school choice and ESAs and vouchers. And in a way, we're doing that in K-12, what you're talking about. Obviously, it's a different model, right? But we're trying to find ways for, well, just because where you grew up.

just because of your zip code, it shouldn't determine where you go to school, right? Or where you end up. And so I love that you're asking also who should get this education? And the answer is, well, every child of God should be able to get this kind of education. And you're finding creative, innovative ways to make that happen, which is incredible. And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of...

doubters and skeptics in the audience, right? And then that's okay, can prove them wrong. But I guess take us through the next 10, five, maybe five, 10 years. I mean, what's kind of, what are the next steps in this? You mentioned 80 students, you know, is there, what is kind of the plan to have every student be part of Hope Forward and kind of the timeline for that?

Nicole Dunteman (24:47.558)
oh, I wish I could get a glimpse into the future and answer that holistically, but here's what I'll tell you, what we want is for one day, every single student on our campus to be a recipient of Hope Forward, to receive this gift, and then to be able to be an active participant in giving it back and being a part of that cycle. And so that's what we're in it for, that is our institutional vision, that's what we are doing.

If you kind of think of, I kind of describe the model as like a crowdfunded model. Another way I like to talk about it is like, it's a pay it forward model. Right. And so if you think of the coffee shop model, you go up to your favorite barista and they say, Hey, the person in front of you actually bought your coffee. And then you say, wow, that is such a gift. Thank you. Can I buy the next person in line? And so then the train starts, right. And it takes everybody being a part of it and saying, yes, I receive it. And then I give that cycle. But it also, what it does, what it needed was that first

in line to say, you know what, I'm not only going to pay for mine, but I'm going to pay for the person behind me. And so right now we are, we are fundraising. We are trying to raise a lot of money to kickstart this and to, um, to provide this to all students. But it takes multiple people and saying, Hey, I want to not only have paid for, I paid for my college education or I paid for my kids or my grandkids. Um, but I also want to, I want to pay for someone at hope.

And I want to start this model. And so it takes money to do it. And that's kind of the reality of it too. So would we like to flip the switch and have every student? Absolutely. Is it going to take time? Yes. But we also are really believing in a really big God who can do really big things. And so we are praying that there are

alumni, their friends at the college, maybe new friends of the college out there who say like this, there is something to this model and I want to be a part of it, want to be a part of launching this, because honestly we believe that this

Nicole Dunteman (26:48.454)
isn't just for hope. Like this isn't just, this model isn't just meant for us to keep it and hoard it and use it. No, we want to, in true nature of the generosity model, we want to give it away. We would love to see this model replicated across Christian higher ed, even across higher education, like across the nation. And I even had a student challenge me the other day. She's like, Nicole, this could be, like this model could be used in multiple settings. Like, what about healthcare? What about this? What about that?

She just kept thinking bigger that I think this idea of communal care and Christian love in action. I think there's something to this that could really change the world. And so yes, I think we can change 80 students lives and hopefully more down the future. Our next cohort is going to be 40 students that we're welcoming this fall. So yes, we want to continue to grow but

I think it can be even bigger than Hope College.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (27:50.537)
It's a great start, but I got to say, there's just a good ring to it, Hope Forward. I don't know if Michigan State Forward or something would just have the same rings. I'm glad that you're the first ones to introduce that model. So if someone in the audience does listen and say, wow, I want to learn more, I want to maybe contribute, is there a website? What's the best way to learn more about Hope Forward?

Nicole Dunteman (27:57.474)
Hahaha

Nicole Dunteman (28:14.058)
Yeah, thanks, Lauren. It's hope.edu slash forward is our landing page. And from there, you can check out all of the, we've been on other podcasts. We've had a Catalyst Summit last spring where we had Malcolm Gladwell and Mitch Album come to campus to really talk about, like, again, we named it the Catalyst Summit because we do believe like this, there is something to this model that could change and innovate in the way we think about higher ed. And so there are videos.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (28:28.738)
Yes.

Nicole Dunteman (28:44.792)
from that conference that we had. There's a student panel where our students get to share their experiences. So just a lot of information if students and listeners and families want to learn more about Hope Forward. And then also there's a way to reach out to someone on our team if you want to connect individually. We would love to have a conversation. And yes, I mean, I hope we're always recruiting for our next class too. So come visit our campus, check out what we're all about here. I love this place so much.

invitational and ecumenical but decidedly Christian and so that's what we're about. We're about academic excellence but pursuing truth and love and but yeah we want to be a place that all people can see themselves here. So that's who Hope College is. So yeah check us out and yeah thanks for the plug Zorin. What a good podcaster here. I appreciate it.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (29:36.137)
Oh, absolutely. And go, definitely go, go visit, go visit. Holland, Michigan is absolutely darling. And the campus is beautiful, especially in the fall. I got to say, as someone who went to school in Michigan, February, January, but in the fall, you should visit, get a tour, meet Nicole and check out Hope Forward. Nicole, I have one more question for you. The last one, the hardest one that we always ask.

Is there one book or one text that you can point to that has been really impactful on your life and why?

Nicole Dunteman (30:10.974)
You are right, that's the hardest question of them all. I would say a book called The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Prown. She lists the 10 guideposts for a wholehearted living and they're things like authenticity and self-compassion and play and rest. And that book, I just think, I think...

I mean, I don't think they're brand new ideas that she talks about. I think they're time old ideas, very rooted in the classics, but yet the way she presents it in such a tangible, practical way. I'm a practitioner at heart, and so I just love the way she frames it. And that book really shaped how I think about showing up wholeheartedly in the world. And so yeah, check it out if you haven't read it. That's a great one.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (31:02.337)
Great on audiobook too. I've done the audio version of it. So it's a good one. Well, thank you so much again. We're here with Nicole Duntemann, who's the Hope Forward Program Director at Hope College in beautiful Holland, Michigan. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nicole Dunteman (31:18.486)
Thank you so much for having me, it's a pleasure.