Why Education Can Never Be Value-Neutral | Michael Bryant

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Michael Bryant from Charleston Southern University. The two discuss why a biblical worldview and the pursuit of knowledge go so well together. They talk about the effect of educational faith integration on the preservation of the liberal arts, and explain why education is never neutral when it comes to values. They also explore the culture’s current issues with biblical illiteracy, and some of the work being done to remedy that. 

Transcript

Soren Schwab (CLT) (00:00.63)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we're joined by Dr. Michael Bryant. Dr. Bryant has served at Charleston Southern University in a variety of administrative roles, including interim president, executive vice president, Dean of Christian Studies, and chair of the religion department. He holds a PhD in New Testament from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and MDiv.

in biblical languages from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and a BS in history from Charleston Southern University. Dr. Bryant is married to Amy and he has four children. He and his wife are members of Northwood Baptist Church and we are so delighted to have him on the podcast today. Dr. Bryant, welcome.

Michael Bryant (00:47.798)
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (00:50.13)
Absolutely. We always start the Anchored Podcast by talking about our guests' own educational background. So talk to us a little bit about your K-12 education and beyond. Did you go to public school, Christian school? What was it like?

Michael Bryant (01:03.23)
I was born in Kentucky and so I grew up there for the first 13 years of my life and I attended public schools, kindergarten, all the way up to 12th grade. Then I actually came here to Charleston Southern University, which is a private Christian institution, Baptist in tradition. So I received a Christian education here at Charleston Southern, history major, and then I went on to Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina.

And that, of course, was a program preparing you to serve in the church or some kind of explicitly Christian vocation, like missions or something, and got a Ph.D. in New Testament.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (01:42.564)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (01:46.866)
We're going to talk a lot today about the integration, faith, and academics, learning. You mentioned you grew up K-12 in the public school. Public school probably has changed a lot the last 10, 20 years, and without revealing your age. But would you say you probably received a public education when public education was still different? Or was it a very clear separation of faith and learning?

at that point and did you receive that kind of faith formation that then led to your wanting to be in Christian higher ed solely at home?

Michael Bryant (02:25.462)
Well, I went to public school as a child in the early 80s, so I'm 51. I don't mind telling you. You know, at that time, at that time, my elementary education, my middle school education was, I think it was quite good. The professors, excuse me, the teachers were excellent. They were very dedicated, very caring, competent. I would say same for middle school, same for high school.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (02:31.331)
Okay.

Michael Bryant (02:50.65)
Yeah, I mean, the environment was not always, especially in high school, not always Christian. But I think by and large, even though it's a public school and the public school gets a bad rap, they were excellent teachers overall, yes.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (03:09.734)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting at CLT. I think a lot of folks think that we're, you know, because we're promoting school choice and we work with a lot of classical schools, Christian schools, but most of us actually were products of public school, I myself. And I think none of us are against public school, but we do acknowledge that there are some things that could probably be reformed. And maybe we moved a little bit from, I mean, not openly promoting a certain religion, but that...

Faith was at least somewhat of a component of learning. You're obviously a promoter of that. Why do you think faith and learning go so well together? Are they necessarily bound to each other? Can they be separated? What do you make of that?

Michael Bryant (03:45.15)
Thanks.

Michael Bryant (03:57.246)
Yeah, I should probably qualify what I said previously. That was a different day in a different time. And, you know, of course, I had a child's perspective and a younger perspective and not necessarily informed by the Christian worldview, the world view, but I acknowledge it's a different day now in many ways. So I think faith and I think learning go together most assuredly.

Well, I think it would help, first of all, just to define what I mean by faith integration or what we mean by faith integration and distinguish it. And then I can tackle that question if you like, because, you know, faith integration, faith in learning, faith in learning excellence, it's used in a lot of different ways. And maybe I should start there just by defining that. So the faith integration approach, in fact, this phrase, some point back to Frank Gabaline,

Soren Schwab (CLT) (04:35.075)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (04:53.694)
in the mid 20th century who coined the term. I know that others used it and practiced it even before him. But in the tradition that I'm speaking about, I think sometimes Frank Gabalime is referenced as coining that phrase. It picked up steam, a lot more steam, with Arthur Holmes and the idea of a Christian college about 20 years later where he was at Wheaton. He very much advocated a faith integration approach.

And especially with the rise of secularism, I think that was an impetus that really caused that movement to gain momentum. But if I were the way I explained the faith and learning approach or faith and learning excellence is we try to bring the Bible into the conversation. We see a unity between the biblical worldview and knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge. So I use the word faith.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (05:40.598)
Hmm.

Michael Bryant (05:48.658)
And I mean Bible, I mean biblical worldview, I mean even Christian intellectual tradition faith, you know, it doesn't mean necessarily a subjective, your subjective experience, what what's going on with Jesus and me. Now, it's a tradition, it's a content. And I think that's important to distinguish, but it's bringing the two together, the Bible, the biblical worldview and learning. I would also say

I think it's helpful to distinguish it between secular approaches. And so in general, the secular approach to education would say, you know, the Bible is a historical document and it's interesting, but it doesn't really belong in the pursuit of knowledge in an authoritative way. There's also a model that is used. It's sometimes called the two sphere approach. And that is the idea that the Bible is welcome only in certain only in certain areas. So there is the classroom. That's where

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:35.37)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (06:45.462)
learning, that's where knowledge, that's where the pursuit of truth takes place. But the other sphere, really the limited sphere where religion of the Bible would be allowed, would be campus ministries or would be chapel. Talking about Christian, Christian institutions or those that would identify as Christian. And so I think I can say this and I would be accurate. My time at CSU earlier in the 90s was more of a two sphere approach.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:58.268)
Thank you for listening.

Michael Bryant (07:13.982)
About 2006, the administration made a strong decision to pursue a faith integration approach, which is where we are today and what we're pursuing today. You typically see a two-sphere approach of institutions that have left their denomination or their religious tradition, and you see the faith integration approach of Christian higher institutions that remain tied to the church.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (07:32.668)
Yeah.

Michael Bryant (07:41.182)
in a substantive way. So I'm sorry, I'm speaking really generally here, but hopefully that answers, hopefully that defines it in a helpful way.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (07:50.436)
No, absolutely. And I think, I've had guests, and we talked about both K-12 and higher education, that bemoan kind of the fact that oftentimes it seems like even Christian K-12, higher ed, doesn't seem much different from kind of public school, except for there's a religion class, or there's a ministry, but that it really is not infused into everything that we're doing. And that doesn't mean like,

I don't know, maybe like the stereotypical, we're doing this class and we're adding Jesus and Mary to our math equations or formulas, but really that we're seeing everything through the lens of. Now, let me ask you this, and I love that CSU has kind of taken those intentional steps. And I think it speaks for itself when you look at your enrollment and really being bold in proclaiming that. Do you...

Do you find this approach easier at a college that is liberal arts in nature? A school that embraces the liberal arts versus maybe some Christian schools that have departed a little bit from the liberal arts. Obviously, you can speak for CSU, but have you noticed that over the last few years as well, that the schools that have had this approach also happen to double down on their liberal arts?

Michael Bryant (09:17.578)
I do. I would agree with that. I mean, certainly when you look at the history of Western civilization, when you look at really the history of the world, not just Western civilization, but there is the faith, the Christian faith, the Christian worldview has played a role. Judaism has played a role as well. And so if you're going to really have a conversation about what has happened, the ideas,

that have been so influential throughout history, you're going to have to include faith. You're going to have to include the scriptures in order to really have that conversation that you need to have.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (09:55.42)
Mm-hmm. Well, I told you before that we're not going to get into politics. You know, this is an education podcast. But but I'd be remiss to at least ask, you know, you mentioned kind of secularism, mid 19th century, obviously moving up, maybe even a more aggressive secularism these days. And we talk about integration of faith. Talk about religion. Is it possible to have an education that is

say values neutral, right? Or without any kind of, um, not necessarily faith, but any adherence to a value system, which of course religions do have, because what we're hearing often from, from representatives kind of, of the progressive education is that, no, we just want to kind of a values neutral education. Dr. Bryant, is that even possible?

Michael Bryant (10:50.878)
I do not believe it is possible. No, everyone speaks from a worldview. In fact, if your listeners were to meet a stranger just in conversation and talking to them, it would maybe take some time, but after a few minutes, that stranger would articulate or would speak from a particular worldview. Secularism, the Christian worldview, something else. Now, they may not be consistent, right? There may be some...

may be eclectic, they may draw from different worldviews, may not be consistent as it should be. But I don't think that there is a completely unbiased education. I don't think that's possible. And one of the ways I explain that to my students, I tell them I'm trying to come from a Christian worldview. And I explain to them, you know, we meet for an hour and 20 minutes and I choose what I will say in the classroom. Right. And I choose their textbook and.

my choice of speech is biased, my choice of textbook. I mean, there are hundreds of textbooks that I could choose and textbooks are very different on a given topic. So I try to explain that to them in that way, but I think everyone comes from a worldview, again, not always consistent, but yes.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (12:08.472)
Yeah, and I think if you go on social media for more than five minutes, you'll probably see examples of this maybe quote unquote new religion, right? And that's certainly not integrating faith, especially not from a Christian worldview. When you have conversations with your students, they go to Charleston Southern and they're in a

Michael Bryant (12:24.343)
And then typically, audience.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (12:38.08)
in a safe environment when it comes to, of course, their Christian faith, but they go outside and they might go to a beautiful old town and they engage with ideas, with things that they're maybe not agreeing with. Are you at Charleston Southern kind of, I guess, directly addressing that, right? That there is this, obviously, this world around them and how to best...

approach it, how to best defend their faith, and has that maybe change over the last few years, that approach to be more intentional about that.

Michael Bryant (13:16.606)
We do. We try, it's very important to us to create a classroom environment that is respectful, student opinions. And so we don't have like debates or yelling in class. It's not that way. We don't have protest on campus, right? It's a different kind of context. And we also let students know that they're valued, they're made in God's image.

you know, regardless, so you don't have to be a believer to go here. So all of our faculty and staff, they're professing Christians, but we don't have a faith requirement for our students. Most would probably say that they're a believer or they would have some kind of faith allegiance. But we have non-Christians here, and so we try to have respectful conversations. We try and show them, though, that much of the discussion today, whether it's the new religion, whether it's Christianity, it goes back to the Christian tradition.

And the Christian tradition, of course, it's still playing a role today. If you take the debate now, just take the debate of abortion, okay, something very controversial. What I emphasize to them is in some ways you have two different sides appealing to different aspects of the Christian tradition, right? Now,

I don't think that one side is using it appropriate and in the right way, but one aspect of the Christian tradition would talk about the value and dignity of human life, right? People are made in God's image. The other would say, well, we have rights, and they would say that rights should allow us to do what we want to with our bodies. Well, where does human rights come from?

Soren Schwab (CLT) (15:05.619)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (15:05.974)
That's a great question. OK, where is where does the concept of human rights come from? I think ultimately it goes back to Genesis to be made in God's image. And so you in one way, in one sense, in our culture today, you have people arguing using different expressions of the Christian tradition. But again, not always in a way, I think that the church has consistently so.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (15:31.148)
Yeah, no, I really appreciate your sharing that. And I think we're seeing this right now in a lot of college campuses. You mentioned the protests, you know, but we're big proponents here of liberal arts, great books education, and it's really hard to be civically engaged, right? And be, you know, quote unquote, a social justice warrior if you have no civic knowledge, if you have no civic background, no historical background.

Michael Bryant (15:57.89)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:00.408)
if you don't understand the fundamentals and first principles. And it's easy to get then swept away and argue from positions that you probably don't even really truly understand yourself. But speaking of literacy, perfect segue, I've known you've spoken and you've written about what you refer to as an age of biblical illiteracy.

Michael Bryant (16:18.833)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:30.616)
What does that mean to you, that term? And what kinds of trends are you seeing among students with respect to their biblical literacy or their lack thereof?

Michael Bryant (16:30.853)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (16:42.358)
Yeah, with our students, I'll give you a very candid example. I'll be real straightforward with you. So usually with my New Testament survey classes. So we require all students to take New Testament survey, Old Testament survey, those two courses. And so usually at the beginning of the New Testament survey class, we give what's called a pretest and you ask some basic questions. And one question I ask is, can you name two of the four Gospels?

and invariably only half the class can name two gospels. So again, not all students who attend are believers, but it just, it illustrates the illiteracy of our day. And I just think it's a reflection of the Charleston region, right? I think it would also be a reflection of other areas. I mean, I even talk with seminary professors, institutions where they're training people for the ministry and

the knowledge of biblical literacy there is low. If you look, so, you know, I can look at personal examples, but illiteracy, I would say, at least in part, goes back to our culture, our society's rejection of the Bible as a source of authority. And so if this is not a legitimate source of authority, like say reason or science or personal experience, right, then why should I read it?

Soren Schwab (CLT) (17:55.218)
and

Michael Bryant (18:07.334)
And so there's a there's a on the part of some there's a pushing away of the Bible because they don't see it as relevant. But I very much see it as relevant. I think that the Christian tradition, the Judeo-Christian tradition has made a huge contribution. And just, you know, just a few things I would mention. I mentioned the value and dignity for human life. I mean, if we go back to, say, the first century, the Romans did not.

affirm that concept, the value and dignity of human life, a concern for the poor. The Romans, you know, they would feed the poor on occasion, but you don't find this concern for the poor like in the Old Testament in Levitical law and like in James, James 127, you know, pure and faultless religion, right? You don't find that there. I even think of like the exclusive nature of marriage. So

If you think of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and I realize people aren't perfect, right? So there are examples of people not being faithful in marriage. But when you read the New Testament, never does the Christian go to worship and engage in relations with someone who is not his spouse. But if you go to paganism, if you go to non-Christian religions, if you go back to, say, the Canaanite religion, right?

the violation of the marriage vow is accepted. I mean, it's an extraordinary contribution. I'm not saying that only the Jews and the Christians were advocating for exclusivity in marriage and that relationship, but it's definitely a different way of looking at the marriage relationship and what is allowed in worship, what is permissible. So.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (19:55.852)
Yeah, yeah. How do we turn that into a positive here? I guess the work that you're doing, right? The work that you're doing, obviously. And I guess I used to teach at a charter school, but I saw even over my seven years there, and we would teach part of the Old Testament, not as faith, but as an important literary and historical document. And I remember, you know, first year was, I think,

Michael Bryant (19:57.559)
Hmm

Michael Bryant (20:01.115)
Yeah. Sorry.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (20:24.796)
2012 and I'd always ask, hey, who's heard of the Adam and Eve story? And most kids hands went up, but even through those six, seven years, I was truly shocked and not that I'm expecting all of my students to be Christian, but even that, I guess, cultural literacy, as Edie Hirsch defined it, you know, mid 1980s of at least having a basic understanding of what unites us, the stories that unite us. And so,

Seeing that even students that are going onto Christian institutions have cleared the desire, but not the basic literacy in those texts is a little bit disheartening, isn't it?

Michael Bryant (21:10.814)
It is. And so I have to be honest, in the past, I had read surveys about believers not really having a good foundation in the Christian worldview or being biblically illiterate, and I was somewhat skeptical. But when you experience it firsthand, it makes you recognize our culture is becoming increasingly biblically illiterate.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (21:21.251)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (21:36.254)
You know, for those reasons that I mentioned, right, the rejection of the Bible as a source of authority. But you had mentioned the new religion. And I should say this, I mean, why is there biblical illiteracy? I think there is also a concerted attack against the faith. So with some in our day, they see Christianity as that which impedes us from progress. And so you have all of these factors working together.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:00.916)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bryant (22:05.258)
contributes to biblical literacy.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:06.724)
Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, if you're in the oppressor versus oppressed mindset and Christianity falls as oppressor, then it must not just be not believed, it must be rejected. And if not dismantled, which is challenging. But I think the positive is, and of course, what we're seeing in our work in the K-12 world is that there is a growing movement of Christian schools, classical Christian schools that are really going

at Fontes, right? They're going back to the fountain. They're reading from the greats. Their religion is not just a class. Theology is infused in everything that they do. And the movement is pretty bottom heavy. So it might be a little while till you're seeing the full fruits at CSU. But I'm confident that really, when you meet those students, they're different. They truly are. And so I think there is hope. But it'll need a.

Michael Bryant (22:57.59)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (23:01.96)
concerted effort and an intentional effort amongst all of us. Dr. Brian, this has been so delightful. I could go on for hours, but we do have one more question that I need to ask you, which we ask every guest on the Anchor podcast, the most challenging one. If there's one book or one text that you can point to that has been most impactful or influential in your life, what would it be and why?

Michael Bryant (23:28.55)
There are many books I could list. There are many books in the Bible that I can list, but I would probably say Proverbs. Proverbs would stand out to me in the scriptures. You know, it presents two paths as I think of our age. It presents two paths. There's the path of the wise, which is the path of godliness, the path that pursues God's standards. There's also the path of the world, which is follyness, which is folly, which is foolishness, which rejects God's standards.

And so for me personally, Proverbs has been a very impactful book, influential book, because, you know, if you want to be successful or if you want to have fulfillment, or if you just really want to live the life, the blessed life that God gives you, and that doesn't mean that it's not marked by trials or difficulties, but fulfillment comes by following his path, the way of wisdom. So I would say that. And Proverbs helps, yeah. Provides guidance, yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (24:21.308)
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Again, we're here with Dr. Michael Bryant from wonderful Charleston Southern University in South Carolina, one of CLT's dearest partner colleges. We're so thankful for the work that you do and thankful that you joined us on Anchor today. Thank you, Michael.

Michael Bryant (24:42.122)
Thank you very much.