A Renaissance in Catholic Education | Archbishop Cordileone

In this episode of Anchored, Jeremy speaks with Salvatore Cordileone, the Archbishop of San Francisco. They delve into Cordileone’s path to the priesthood and his personal experiences with Pope John Paul II. They also discuss the evolution of Catholic education from its peak in the 1960s to the present day, and discuss potential signs of a renaissance in Catholic education. They conclude by examining why Catholic schools are inherently classical and how Catholicism enriches the teaching of the Western tradition.

Transcript

Jeremy (00:02.712)
Welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. Folks, I am so excited about our guest today. We have with us today the Archbishop of San Francisco, one of my heroes, Archbishop Cordellone. Archbishop, thank you so much for being with us.

Archbishop Cordileone (00:17.952)
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Jeremy (00:20.551)
I wonder if we could start off, I'd love to hear about your own formation growing up. Did you grow up in Catholic schools, public schools? What was that like for you?

Archbishop Cordileone (00:32.458)
grew up in San Diego. My father was a commercial fisherman. Back in the day when I was growing up, it was the center of the tuna fleet. He was a tuna fisherman, commercial fisherman, and his work was seasonal, the kind of tuna they fish for albacore. So during the summers, he was away fishing during the winter months. And early spring, he worked on the bay in San Diego.

I went actually I went to public school growing up, but I always had a desire to do something worthwhile with my life. Now, San Diego being a water town, right? It's a port, it's a big Navy town. so I went down with my father to his boat when he'd get it ready for the fishing season and there was a lot of Navy there. So that kind of got him into my imagination.

So I wanted to serve a higher cause and I thought it was to serve my country and maybe in a naval career or something, some kind of a military career. So I had my vision focused on that. Toward the end of high school, was getting, well, a couple things were going on. also played in, we had a great music program at my high school. So I was getting more interested in that, but I was also getting more seriously spirit.

Jeremy (01:34.766)
Okay.

Archbishop Cordileone (01:58.42)
more spiritually serious. Now, I never went through a phase where I stopped practicing my faith. My faith was always important to me. Going to public schools, we went to, well, first we called it Catechism, then we called it CCD. Now they call it Faith Formation, but those extra classes. And I actually liked those classes. I found them interesting and worthwhile. So the faith was always important to me, but I never really thought about

vocation to the priesthood until toward the end of high school and I was getting more like I said spiritually serious and asking them the even bigger questions in life there was a young priest at my parish who Kind of inspired me. He kind of sparked the idea of maybe that God is calling me to this Thinking about you know, what why did God put me in this this world? What difference is my life going to make what's the greatest cause I could serve and I thought it no greater cause than

Jeremy (02:46.147)
Hmm.

Archbishop Cordileone (02:56.446)
to help people in their relationship to God and help them get to heaven. So the thought wouldn't go away. So during my first year of college, I went to a state university at the time. I grew up close to San Diego State. But I finally got up the nerve to speak with the priest and he sent me on a discernment retreat at the small college seminary the diocese had at the time. And the thought wouldn't go away. I got more exposure to what the seminary life was like and it appealed to me. So I knew I had to.

Jeremy (03:18.028)
Okay.

Archbishop Cordileone (03:26.484)
I had to at least check this out. So I entered the seminary, I transferred to the University of San Diego where I completed my studies, did my philosophy studies there, then went on to do my theology studies at the North American College, attended the Gregorian University in Rome. So it was a matter of feeling strongly drawn in that direction. And I knew I needed to test it. And after some years in the seminary, I discerned that's what God was calling me to do.

Jeremy (03:56.184)
Wow, wow. And how was it decided that you were going to go to the North American seminary in Rome? I've heard of this as kind of the top gun of seminaries. They send some of the brightest young men there. How does that work? Did you want to go there or does the bishop decide?

Archbishop Cordileone (04:15.442)
Ultimately, the bishop decides where to send a seminarians for theology. So in San Diego there, San Diego used to have its own theologian, but it had closed a few years before I entered the seminary. So the diocese was sending seminarians to five different theology schools and we had to apply. We had to pick three of the five and explain why we wanted to go there. So I was interested in studying abroad.

living abroad, especially in Italy, where my grandparents came from and where we still had relatives. And of course, Rome being the center of the church and all that. I should add on back up a little bit. When I look back about my call, I see there were signs there that I didn't recognize at the time, such as that I always kept going to church, even on my own as a teenager. I used to do walking home from school. The church was open during the day. So every once in while I'd stop in there just to pray or make the Stations of the Cross.

Jeremy (05:06.967)
Mm.

Archbishop Cordileone (05:10.932)
I had a paper out and I was very solicitous to my elderly customers, helping out with chores around the home and visiting them and things like that. So I kind of see there were signs there that I sort of discovered later. But the idea, so as far as going to Rome, was we requested three of the five and I had those reasons for wanting to go to Rome. And the faculty of the seminary is the one that ultimately decided and most of them had studied in Rome, so they knew.

Jeremy (05:14.409)
huh.

Jeremy (05:32.782)
All right.

Archbishop Cordileone (05:41.372)
know what the seminary situation was like there and the life was like there so they were able to discern who they thought would profit from the from that situation.

Jeremy (05:43.702)
Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy (05:49.836)
Okay, I'm trying to do the math in my head here. Is this early in John Paul's papacy?

Archbishop Cordileone (05:56.288)
So my, class met at JFK airport and flew over together. We arrived the day before the installation of Pope John Paul the first.

Jeremy (06:07.844)
No way. That's incredible. And he was only Pope for like a month, right?

Archbishop Cordileone (06:09.056)
Yes, the 33 days. So we were there when he became took the chair of Peter. We were at his last public audience. We were sitting up toward the front. I was one day I was walking with a classmate and there was this motorcade and then the pope went whizzing by. He was going to the Lateran Basilica to take possession of the cathedral. So we were there for that whole. And I remember the morning when the rector

came into the chapel who announced that the Pope was dead. And it was a dreary morning too. It was overcast, kind of drizzly. We walked down to St. Peter's, the toll, the funeral toll was ringing. was...

Jeremy (06:43.95)
Incredible. So you were...

Jeremy (06:51.544)
Wow. Okay, this is incredible. And then were you there for the white smoke and the conclave that elected John Paul II as well? Unreal.

Archbishop Cordileone (06:51.612)
is a pretty heavy experience.

Archbishop Cordileone (06:59.584)
I on the part they call the Sagrada under the loja where the Pope came out. I was there when he was elected and came out on the loja. So I was blessed with a lot of history. So I was there from 78 to 82 doing my theology studies. I was ordained in 82. I returned in 85 to do a doctoral degree in canon law. So I was there from 85 to 89.

Jeremy (07:07.618)
That's amazing.

That's amazing. That's amazing.

Jeremy (07:27.32)
Okay.

Archbishop Cordileone (07:27.456)
I worked for two years in the diocese, assistant to the bishop, worked in the tribunal for two years. And I was the pastor of a parish on the Mexican border out in a desert area of the diocese toward Arizona for four years from 91 to 95. Then I went to Rome a third time to work in the curia there in my area of Canna Law from 95 to 2002. So that's a lot of the reign of John Paul II. So I got a good dose of him.

Jeremy (07:39.149)
Okay.

Jeremy (07:52.576)
Incredible. Incredible. And some personal time with him as well.

Archbishop Cordileone (07:59.91)
I had a number of opportunities, most of were fleeting. But after he passed away and I reflected on my history there, I realized that every stage up to and through my priesthood, I connected with him at a level that was congruent with that. So as a seminarian, while I once served midnight mass for him, I washed his fingers at midnight mass in St. Peter's Basilica. The year I was a deacon, I was one of the deacon of the oils for the chrism mass that he celebrated.

As a priest, was able to, he was very receptive to priests, you know, concelebrating his mass with him in his private chapel and people attending. So I was able to do that twice. The second time, in fact, I was asked to do the part of the Eucharistic prayer of concelebrating where I mentioned the name of the pope and I'm there standing next to him. Still, I couldn't believe it was happening. Then as a bishop, when I was an auxiliary bishop, I went to the Adlimina visit.

Jeremy (08:49.82)
Yeah. Wow.

Archbishop Cordileone (08:59.648)
the visit bishops make every five years to the Vatican with the bishop I was working for and I was able to be a part of. John Paul would meet with every bishop for 15 minutes. I was able to be a part of that encounter.

Jeremy (09:09.614)
Hmm. Okay. Archbishop, I would love to discuss education and kind of what's happened. So 1965 is kind of the high point in some ways of Catholic education in America. In 1965, just over 50%, half of all Catholic children were attending Catholic schools. And fast forward to 2024, and it's less than 10%.

of Catholic children or in Catholic schools.

There's been the decline in numbers, but there's also been a decline in how distinct the schools are as well. Mass now is often maybe just once a month. Often the theology is kind of lukewarm and not very serious. In fact, I've been part of a men's Bible study for years where all Catholic men, and at one time none of us had our kids in Catholic school,

And the reason was that they were just too similar to the public schools. It didn't make sense. How did we go from this high point in the 60s to where we are today?

Archbishop Cordileone (10:27.082)
Something as monumental as that is always a matter of multiple causation. And I think it was a perfect storm. If we think about what, well, a few of us are still old enough to remember what the world was like at the time, what was happening in the world at that time. Catholics had finally arrived in the United States. I think we've always fought with an inferiority complex, trying to fit into the United States. But our

Catholic soldiers and sailors proved their valor in Second World War. The Catholic chaplains were renowned for their bravery. The church was a baby boom generation in the 50s. Church was growing. New churches, parishes being founded, new churches and schools being built. There's a boom in vocations. And then we had finally had a Catholic president. So it was like the Catholic moment we had arrived, but.

Then we're right at the time of all the social revolutions in the 60s. And Catholics were at, so that was everything was being sort of secularized already back then. Also Catholics moved out of the ethnic neighborhoods, right? lot of, especially in the East and the Midwest, there was every ethnic group had its parish and they had the clergy, you know, to staff the parishes.

Jeremy (11:29.016)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy (11:38.488)
Hmm.

Archbishop Cordileone (11:49.77)
But they moved out of those neighborhoods and went into the suburbs. then they, so they began to blend in more with sort of mainstream America. Some of the ways the liturgy changed sort of lend itself to be going off in that direction. our style of worship was less distinctive than how other Americans worship. Most of all though, I would say, and everyone realizes it was the loss of the nuns, right?

schools were staffed by nuns and they were really the backbone of the church. And I, as I mentioned, I went to public school, so I never experienced being taught by the nuns, but a lot of people my age did. And I, this is something else I reflected on later. My first and second grade catechism classes, I had a nun teaching me.

So I realized now they were the young ones, right? The young ones got stuck teaching the public school kids Sunday morning, but I loved them, you know, and I still remember them. I especially remember my first communion teacher in second grade. So I think for one hour a week in first and second grade, it has had an influence on me. So I could imagine every day, all day long from kindergarten through eighth grade and some on into high school, what a huge difference that would make. So.

Jeremy (12:47.013)
huh. huh. Yeah.

Jeremy (13:07.84)
Yeah.

Archbishop Cordileone (13:10.996)
The loss of the nuns was a big loss as well. Over time then, the teachers that are being recruited, they didn't have the formation that the nuns had. Nobody can. They were basically taken out of society for six years, formed within the spirituality of the order and prepared to be teachers in schools. So their whole life was dedicated to this, right? So the lay teachers at the time were well -formed.

Jeremy (13:20.824)
Yep.

Archbishop Cordileone (13:37.856)
because most Catholics were at least at a certain basic level. But over time, as it began to weaken, then teachers who were hired did not have that good formation in the faith. So they really didn't have a of a Catholic instinct that an earlier generation did. So I think it's kind of that perfect storm where all these things were happening at the same time.

Jeremy (13:53.752)
Hmm.

Jeremy (13:59.872)
Okay, okay. That's very insightful. you know, and it's not all bad news. I think there's many signs that maybe right now we're in the beginning of a new renaissance of Catholic education. You just brought in a man who I believe is going to be one of the best superintendents in the country, our mutual friend, Chris Fisher. And Chris is a real visionary for recovering authentically, passionately.

Catholic education. I'm wondering what does that look like and what are you hoping to continue to cultivate in the Archdiocese of San Francisco?

Archbishop Cordileone (14:39.338)
Well, thank you for mentioning, Chris. very I'm elated to have him on board in this role as superintendent of schools. So it gives me a lot of hopes, but a lot of wind in my sails. And I think I don't know if saying a renaissance of Catholic education is putting it too strongly, but I see something changing now for the good. I'm especially encouraged by the growth of these classical liberal, liberal curriculum schools.

at both the elementary and high school level. So I think when I observe, just step back and observe, where is the church young and vibrant and growing and on fire for the faith? It's where what's classically Catholic has been embraced. And I'm not talking about pretending Vatican II didn't have them going back to that. There is a need to retrieve a lot of what was lost before, from after the council.

Jeremy (15:21.539)
Hmm.

Archbishop Cordileone (15:37.664)
people who embrace kind of the vision of the council of how does the church live as a church in this changed world, but preserving what is classical in our tradition and I see that especially in worship, in religious life, look at the religious orders that are growing, young and growing, and education. So classical education hands on the faith because the church built

our civilization, right? Built Western civilization. So just a matter of studying that kind of curriculum. So not all schools can be classical academies, but those schools can have an influence on the curriculum that's taught in other schools that are not of a liberal education curriculum. So they can be the teaching of more humanities in terms of

know, literature and classical languages and just the whole way history and social studies is taught. So people, our children need to understand how the church built this great civilization and they need to understand why they should be proud to be Catholic. So I see this as the energizing some kind of a renaissance now.

Jeremy (16:58.062)
Okay, Archbishop, I love to tell this story, but my dear friend and the first president of the CLT board, Mr. Keith Nix, he's the head of the Veritas School in Richmond, Virginia. It's not a Catholic school. It's a classical Christian school, but some of the leading Catholic families in Richmond, they send their kids to this school instead of the local Catholic schools.

And the head of the school says we actually beat the Catholic schools on Catholic identity. We tell the parents, here you're gonna read Dante, here you're gonna learn Latin, you're gonna learn to chant, you're gonna learn the musical tradition of the faith. So eye -opening that thoughtful Catholic families are choosing a non -Catholic school.

because it's more Catholic. That's the state of so many of these archdiocesan schools. And I think that it's been difficult for a lot of Catholic schools to figure out how they relate to this booming classical education movement. know, like Texas where you've got Valor and these incredible classical charter schools booming.

A lot of families are leaving the Catholic schools and they're going to the classical charter schools where they're not Catholic but they're getting the richness of the tradition. Are Catholic schools, is a faithfully Catholic school inherently classical? How would you answer that?

Archbishop Cordileone (18:29.44)
Well, I never thought about that question before.

If it's going to be, I'd say if it's going to be a vibrant Catholic school with the real Catholic ethos, there has to be that element to it. Obviously, it's not going to work if you have a regular curriculum with a religious studies course at it, even if you call it theology, right? So the school has to have a, well, first of all, it's education of the whole person, especially forming them in the virtues. So the whole point is to help the,

Jeremy (19:02.392)
Hmm.

Archbishop Cordileone (19:04.914)
our students become saints, so they need to discover their vocation and have the virtue to live it well and faithfully for the rest of their lives. So education of the whole person, it's about then instilling a sacramental vision, right, that our whole view is sacramental, that the visible world is God uses to reveal the spiritual reality that is beyond it. So how we worship and how

how we approach, well, something like the institution of marriage, a natural institution that has a much deeper spiritual and mystical meaning to it. And so how we approach the respect for life. know, these are, this is kind of the sacramental sensitivity. So a Catholic school has to do all that education, a whole person forming them in virtue and this sacramental vision. It's interesting what you said about Catholics sending their children to these classical academies because

It works in reverse as well. People who go through this education end up becoming Catholic. So I'm sure you're aware of that though, what they used to have at Kansas State University, the Western Civilization course that eventually was shut down. It wasn't an explicitly Catholic curriculum, but they taught Western civilization honestly. And two of our bishops in our country were converts to the faith who went through that program.

Jeremy (20:11.539)
Yes, Yeah.

Jeremy (20:18.221)
Yeah.

Jeremy (20:32.162)
Yeah, Coakley and Bishop Conley just joined the CLT, our board at CLT. He's the newest CLT board member and incredible story of what happened there. You're absolutely right. You know, that this

Archbishop Cordileone (20:34.698)
Just to calm me.

Archbishop Cordileone (20:44.766)
And I understand other examples, I understand there's a growing number of converts at Hillsdale College. I've been told, maybe you you mentioned Texas, that the philosophy department at Baylor University is all Catholic now. that's why I say, imagine if everyone who graduates from a Catholic school understood the beauty of this tradition. And there's no reason why a school that's not an explicitly...

pathological curriculum with the trivium and quadrivium, but a more of a standard curriculum. There's no reason why you can't and in fact should teach Latin to read Dante singing chant. There's no reason a school with a more standard curriculum can't do that. And they should be doing that because it helps form a Catholic imagination, a Catholic soul in our children. And they'll be Catholic for the rest of their lives. I often say that when we

Jeremy (21:34.871)
Mm.

Archbishop Cordileone (21:43.198)
have masses for the school children. We've been failing at this thinking about doing the same thing over and over that the thought is that what we have to sing music that's familiar to them that they can relate to otherwise they're going to be turned off. So we sing children's songs when we have mass with the children. But what happens when they grow up and look back on growing up Catholic? It's something for children, right? How many people say I was raised Catholic?

Jeremy (21:59.791)
-huh.

Jeremy (22:06.87)
Yep. Yep. Yep. yeah.

Archbishop Cordileone (22:10.73)
We don't hear that phrase with regard to other religions. You know, they don't say I was raised Methodist. They might say that, well, my mother's Methodist went to Methodist church for a while, but then we kind of got away. But they say I was raised Catholic. But when we form the Catholic soul, just like in the Jewish religion, mean, they're atheistic, atheists, Jews are atheists, but they still have a Jewish soul because it's so much embedded in their culture. So they'll never be

Jeremy (22:13.602)
Hmm. Yeah.

Jeremy (22:37.762)
Yeah.

Archbishop Cordileone (22:40.16)
totally away from the church, even if they walk away from practicing the faith. But much fewer will walk away from the practice of the faith because they've been given something that kind of goes beyond our immediate experience here, something of eternal value to cling to. So we've helped to form a Catholic soul in them.

Jeremy (23:02.062)
My own kiddos go to a school called Divine Mercy Academy, and this is a newer classical Catholic school. It's not technically Catholic yet. They say in the Catholic tradition because it'll take the archdiocese 10 years. But daily mass, daily rosary, it's beautiful, Latin, chanting, it's incredible. They needed a space and they moved into the building where a Catholic school had closed because of years and years of dwindling enrollment.

And the folks at the school at this parish said, you know, there's no way you're to be able to grow a school here. You know, the school closed and this school has doubled in enrollment every year for five years. This is divine mercy Academy. And so I

Folks want the genuine article and they want leaders who are gonna fight to bring it back. And you're one of those leaders in the church. It was great being with you at the Napa Institute. You were on a panel there with Bishop Conley and one other. What can the leadership of the church be doing to help bring about this renewal in Catholic education?

Archbishop Cordileone (24:15.496)
I have this theory I call bi -directional. You know, if it's all top down, it's not going to work, right? It's like the leadership, like we bishops, we can't just think, okay, we're gonna do things this way and then oppose it on everyone. At the same time, it can't be completely grassroots because we have the bird's eye view. We're in a position to know what's gonna preserve and build up communion in the church. So what's grassroots has to be incorporated into that.

So I think it needs to be in this kind of bi -directional. It doesn't mean that we should sit back and see what are the people who are going to do and then we'll guide it. No, we have to take initiatives, obviously. But we kind of plant seeds, try to pilot new ideas and see how it goes. And is it drawing people? Is it working? What needs to be fixed? Same thing when things are happening grassroots. And I see classical education and elementary and

high school levels, it's more of a grassroots movement. But we bishops have to be guiding it, right? So, and working together. So I would say, affirm what we see happening on the grassroots level that's actually helping to form our young people in the faith and guide it properly, keep it within the family, within the community of the church. Because if they...

the church authority stays out of it, then there's more of a draw to kind of go off and form a parallel church. So that's gonna harm communities. So the bishops have to be involved at the same time. I mean, we do have to provide some discipline and some make sure we're all operating within the parameters. And we also have to provide leadership and vision so people can know we're all like rowing in the same direction. So there's kind of what I call this bi -directional

movement for a renewal of the church.

Jeremy (26:10.018)
I love that, love that. Archbishop, we always conclude the Anchored Podcast by talking about books. I'm sure our audience would love to hear for you, what is the book that has been most formative? Maybe it's a book that you reread every few years.

Archbishop Cordileone (26:27.744)
I don't read read books very often because if I have an opportunity to do elective reading, I want to try to read something different as much as possible because that time is limited. But still, I've always been inspired by stories of these priests and bishops who have fought these totalitarian regimes behind the Iron Curtain at the time of the Soviet Union or against Nazi Germany.

Jeremy (26:49.709)
Hmm.

Archbishop Cordileone (26:54.944)
So when I was in the college seminary, I discovered Father Chizik, Walter Chizik, and I read his book, you know, with God in Russia, and I later read, He Leadeth Me. And then I read stories about other priests and bishops like that. But I'd say the inner strength of these men and all they suffered and did so joyfully, it's such an inspiration to me. We suffer so minuscule compared to what they went through.

but they will remain faithful in the midst of all that suffering and joyful as well.

Jeremy (27:32.667)
Fantastic. Again, we're here with Archbishop Cordellion, the Archbishop of San Francisco. Archbishop, thank you so much for your ministry, the work you're doing in California, and just being a shining example for so many of a leader and your courage in leading your flock in the faith.

Archbishop Cordileone (27:53.056)
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Let us pray for each other.