The Future of School Choice in Texas | Rep. Brad Buckley

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Texas State Representative Brad Buckley, who discusses his educational journey, the importance of classical education, and recent reforms in Texas public education. Buckley emphasizes the need for rigorous instructional materials, the role of testing, and the significance of school choice and educational savings accounts. He also shares insights on the impact of literature in his life and the importance of parental involvement in education.

Transcript

Soren Schwab - CLT (00:00.866)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we're joined by Brad Buckley. State Representative Brad Buckley is currently serving his third term in the Texas House of Representatives and represents House District 54, which includes half of Bell County in Central Texas. He was first elected to the Texas House in November of 2018 and was the Texas House Republican Caucuses Freshman of the Year.

in the 86th legislature. He is the chairman of the House Public Education Committee and is honored to lead on important policy that affects professional educators, the 5.5 million school children in Texas and their families. A native Texan, Buckley was born and raised in rural Bell County and is a product of Killeen ISD schools. He is a proud Texas Aggie and received his bachelor's degree in 1989 and his doctorate of veterinary medicine in 93. After graduating,

We returned to his hometown of Killeen to open his veterinary practice and has been serving his community and their pets since 1994. has served, he has also served on the school board for the Killeen independent school district. He's the proud husband of Dr. Susan Buckley, who is a career educator and currently serves as assistant superintendent for secondary schools in the Killeen independent school district. He's a proud father of Emily, Erin and Bo, all of whom are also Aggies. The Buckleys are also grandparents of Leo and Cole.

Representative Buckley and Susan live on their ranch in Salado where they maintain a cow-calf operation and raise and train Western performance horses. And we are so honored to have representative Buckley on the podcast today. Welcome, sir.

Brad Buckley (01:43.99)
Thank you, Soren. Appreciate the invitation to be here.

Soren Schwab - CLT (01:48.724)
Absolutely. I know it's a busy time. we're really grateful that you're making time for us here. We always start the Anchored Podcast by talking about our guests own educational journey. So tell us a little bit about your own K-12 education.

Brad Buckley (02:03.544)
Well, born and raised in Killeen. It was a small town, a military town, right adjacent to what, when I was born, it was called Fort Hood, now Fort Cavazos. And I'm the grandson of the, my granddad was the head football coach and a teacher and a principal, math teacher, principal, administrator, but basically head football coach, athletic director. And my grandmother taught first grade for 42 years.

My dad did not go into education, but he was a, he ranched and then worked on Ford Hood as an accountant. And my mom was a first grade teacher and early childhood educator for 38 years. And so I attended public schools in, in Killeen, graduated in high school in 1985, and then went on to Texas A University where I pursued my degree to become a veterinarian and, and ended up back, back home.

and been there ever since.

Soren Schwab - CLT (03:05.294)
fascinating. You're a veterinarian, an entrepreneur, and of course, your father. How has all that kind of shaped your view on education?

Brad Buckley (03:15.092)
you know, my wife, you know, she, she started out in the business world, you know, she, she worked in the business world, put me through vet school. And then when we got back, back home, you know, she always said, I'll never be a teacher. And then had the opportunity to teach business or actual marketing at a local high school, actually the high school where she and I graduated from and really fell in love with education and then went on and received a master's and a doctorate.

and had worked there in the schools, been a curriculum director, assistant principal, a high school principal, elementary principal, and now of course assistant superintendent. And then we raised our three kids that way. And they all attended public schools in Killeen. we, three kids that all were college ready, all graduated from Texas A are now out in the workforce. One child with an advanced degree and.

Soren Schwab - CLT (04:02.19)
Mm-hmm.

Brad Buckley (04:06.838)
And so, you know, we're pretty fortunate, but we were the type of parents that were very engaged and we were always going to do what was necessary so that our kids got what they needed. And we felt like our kids received a great education. You know, my youngest is 24, so it's been several years ago. But both of us have always believed, my wife and I, that, you know, really education is a unique process.

And one size does not fit all. And that the most important thing is to understand that our kids need to be educated. They must be prepared to launch and whatever that means, whether it's a higher ed, whether it's a military career or whether it's in a career of some kind or a trade. And so that's kind of what we focused as a school board member in Killeen. I focused a lot on that. I was there when we founded the first career school or career high school to bring those career jobs.

Soren Schwab - CLT (05:01.87)
Mm-hmm.

Brad Buckley (05:05.236)
or prepare kids for jobs and careers. And then my wife, of course, has led the charge on lots of different types of curriculum and things in our local public school system.

Soren Schwab - CLT (05:17.452)
Yeah. At CLT, we have worked extensively with leaders in the classical education world, kind of the renewal of the liberal arts education. And it has primarily thrived within private K-12 schools and colleges. But we've also seen public charter schools in particular across the country adopting classical modens. And especially so in Texas. When you think of the growth of Texas public charter schools like our friends at Founders or at Valor,

It seems to indicate that this option is very attractive to many, parents. What's kind of your assessment of why so many Texas families are seeking this kind of more traditional classical education?

Brad Buckley (05:59.032)
You know, I think it's sort of a return to our founding principles. It's a return. You know, it's an overused term in education, but back to the basics. I feel like that over time, you know, any profession wants to advance. And often the innovation that occurs sometimes begins to sort of outpace

Soren Schwab - CLT (06:10.956)
Yeah, no, you're right.

Brad Buckley (06:27.542)
what we did in the past and prescribed as being better. And even in medicine, in veterinary medicine, sometimes we sit down and look back and go, you know what we were doing, what we did before was actually better. And I think COVID, at least from the parents that I talked to, COVID pulled the curtain back on some of the instruction in our classrooms. I think in Texas that overall, the vast, vast, vast majority of things that go on in Texas classrooms is entirely appropriate.

and, you know, was in the class two classrooms yesterday and I saw wonderful teachers in front of kids were learning was taking place and it was high quality materials, students on task. was a student discourse between them talking about, was rigorous, it was challenging and it was fundamental. but I think during COVID parents saw some things they quite frankly, they didn't understand. And when that happens, a parent says, wait a minute.

And so then they began to seek other options. And I think the classical learning model is one that parents sought out because I think they understood it. But I think also they understand that that model for many parents, it really matches their values and it matches the future that they want to prepare their kids for.

Soren Schwab - CLT (07:47.126)
Yeah, it's interesting when you when you talk about back to basics, because I mean, so much of kind of the conversation about education and classical education, progressive education, like, we're not really talking about what's actually like curriculum wise, what's happening in the classroom, oftentimes, like philosophically, you know, there are philosophical differences. But when you talk about back to basics, I assume you're referring to the way we teach math and getting our kids to be able to read books and

Brad Buckley (08:13.718)
yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (08:16.398)
And so is that something that you're seeing there that now some of the public schools potentially are adopting to where they saying, you know We tried some things and maybe they didn't quite work as well I know that a lot of schools now kind of go back to teaching phonics They they might call it now the signs of reading right, but we kind of drifted away from it now. We're coming back Is that what you're seeing?

Brad Buckley (08:36.664)
Absolutely, you know, mean, in Texas, I in 2019, maybe 17, don't quote me on that, but we instituted the reading academies for all of our teachers that were involved in the early childhood and the elementary reading space so that they could, you know, we could take what we know about the science of reading and really implement it in our schools. But the reality is that the curriculum needs to match that. If you're trained in the science of reading and then the curriculum

doesn't match that the curriculum still relies on three queuing if it's relies on a whole language balance literacy approach and really, you know, is not built upon a structured literacy framework. Well, then you're really talking two different things. You're basically teaching best practices and the best evidence based methods via the science of the reading academies or the science of reading.

but then you're not providing teachers with the tools to actually implement the science of reading. And so we worked very hard in the legislature this last session to pass a bill that will put high quality instructional materials in the hands of Texas teachers, that understands, that curriculum understands that we need to teach the science of reading, that we need to have kids of all ages read passages.

There's lots of read alouds in there. We also know that often listening to passages that are above grade level actually helps kids read on grade level. That's the way the ear hears it can build the vocabulary. We have vocabulary lists. are things that it has kind of become where reading was presented far too long as this wonderful thing that a child would just do out of enjoyment.

Soren Schwab - CLT (10:01.687)
Hmm.

Brad Buckley (10:28.12)
that they would grab a book and they'd curl up in the window and they would disappear off into whatever the book is about. And I think for some kids that's the case. We all have three kids and you have the one that's the bookworm that is just a voracious reader and can read really anything and reading came easy and then in some instances it's not. But we do know that there are ways to present material to the brain so that children really learn to read.

In any instance, they must be proficient in reading by grade three, or it really begins to cause an issue. And it is the beginning of a real academic struggle for too many kids.

Soren Schwab - CLT (11:08.172)
Yeah, yeah, and you already touched a little bit on that but in Texas, I mean you have begun to really hone in on you know, what is going on the public classroom public school classrooms? And I think our listeners would really benefit from that and talk about some recent reforms you had have led on Addressing state academic standards instructional materials testing and so forth So maybe I want to ask you kind of on instructional materials you One of the the bills that you authored was recently enacted

House Bill 1605. What problem did Texas face there and how is that bill solving it or trying to solve it?

Brad Buckley (11:46.978)
Well, what really was the impetus of it when we looked across Texas and we looked at studies, we found that only about 19 % of the lessons being taught in Texas public school classrooms were being taught on grade level. Okay, so now it's not a grand cabal where everybody came together and said, let's teach below grade level. But the reality was is that you have kids that come into a classroom that are at levels along their academic journey. Some are advanced, some are in the middle, some are behind.

And so teachers were having to scramble to be able to make certain that they could loop back to make sure those kids that were behind, that they could bring them along, okay, to try to catch them up. But in the meantime, those in the middle and sometimes those that were already advanced weren't growing at the level we needed them to. And it was really stifling. And so House Bill 1605 really sought to remedy that by providing rigorous materials. Again, the science of reading is embedded in those materials.

but also kind of a return to the classics where passages from great works of literature are included. There's theologic and biblical references to materials that really are the underpinnings of some of the founding principles of the country and even understanding of world history and really kind of a grand recognition that true reading comprehension and the gaining of knowledge and learning is built upon sort of understanding

some founding fundamental things about this world. And so that is really what we've created in what's called Blue Bonnet Learning, which will be a state-owned resource that districts can access. But then again, we've also set the standards where other producers of curriculum can have their materials vetted to receive that high quality instructional material designation. And so we really have provided material that raises the bar in the classroom.

that is more rigorous, that is better for teachers. They don't have to spend extra time going outside on the weekends, going out on the internet, finding things on Pinterest and Googling things to plug in the gaps. We also are extremely intentional about this curriculum covering the standards that our state board says kids need to know. And those standards are really a reflection of parents and community members and classroom teachers.

Brad Buckley (14:13.112)
the business community of what we think children ought to know when they leave our system. And so this is built to build a menu of curriculum that our districts can use. The Blue Bonnet materials, the Blue Bonnet learning materials though, I wouldn't call it a true classical learning curriculum, but it's very much based in that. And I think it also gives our public schools a great tool.

Soren Schwab - CLT (14:39.95)
Mm-hmm.

Brad Buckley (14:43.2)
you know, to say, you know, here's what my communities are wanting. Let's take a look at this and really kind of see if we can match the values of our community.

Soren Schwab - CLT (14:51.71)
I love everything you just said. I mean, it really, I think sometimes the the misperception maybe with classical or classic or whatever it's called, right? Especially in the lower grades, we want kids to be able to read and fall in love with reading. And what better way to do that than reading great stories, right? Classic literature and ASAPs fables and the wind, the willows and the prince and the pauper. Those are all stories that you talk about, you know, like for some kids reading is a chore. Well,

Brad Buckley (15:04.493)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (15:10.199)
Yes.

Yes.

Soren Schwab - CLT (15:19.458)
for young kids, oftentimes reading informational texts about, I don't know, newspaper clippings, like that is kind of boring to them. But great stories and fables. I mean, you have three kids of your own, right? Like everyone loves, loves a great story, but they're usually also rich in vocabulary, right? And so oftentimes, you know, that, obviously impacts their, their reading. So, so classic, classical potato, potato, right? You're just saying, let's, let's read some good stuff and kind of raise the bar a little bit.

Brad Buckley (15:38.85)
Well, yeah.

Brad Buckley (15:47.126)
Yeah, well, you know, and knowledge, you know, is the basis of comprehension. You know, that's the thing. You don't comprehend if you don't have the knowledge base. And, know, for my kids, we could take them places on trips and see historic sites and, and, you know, see the wonders of the world, if you will. You too many kids come to Texas classrooms and they may not have been outside the city they live in. And so you can begin to talk about, you know, different, you know, historical sites or

or places or interesting features around the country or the world. And it's hard for them to make that connection, to really build that knowledge base, to have great comprehension. And so if you can't take them there, they can read about it. You know what I mean? And they begin to learn that. they can either read it on grade level or they can hear it in a read aloud as they build their own reading skills to match that level. Because we know the science of reading really does that. And so I think it's...

It's a great step. And the other thing about the materials we created is we have a parent portal that's there. And it's not only for parents to feel comfortable with the content, but it's a way for a parent to look in and say, how can I help? Because we need, regardless of the setting, we need parents as partners. The education day shouldn't end when the school bell rings. When homework is there and there's materials to be covered at night or exams to be prepared for, a parent really needs to be able to

to look in the window, if you will, to see how the material is being taught, what material it is, and then be able to assist their children in learning. when you have all that working together, you see great student achievement. And that's kind of what we're seeking.

Soren Schwab - CLT (17:29.228)
Yeah. Yeah. And I really kudos to you all and to the state of Texas. I think sometimes maybe the public perception is that we're just kind of dumbing down everything, right? And maybe for a little while you talked about systems and structures, right? Large organizations. Maybe there was a little bit of that. And I can also understand throughout COVID, it was challenging and you had students that weren't able to go to school as often or not at all. They spoke

Spanish at home, they didn't hear, right? And so to hold them to the same standard throughout COVID, that's a difficult position to be in, right? But at the same time, realizing, I mean, I guess, with your three kids, right, they didn't always want the celery or the carrots, right? But you know, it's good for them, right? And so I think some of progressive education, unfortunately, has also become all about, whatever the student wants. And don't get me wrong, we want the students to be excited about things, but

Brad Buckley (18:13.016)
Really?

Soren Schwab - CLT (18:23.798)
We also need to trust obviously our parents and our teachers that they, when it comes to that, knows what's best for the students as it comes to their, you know, their literacy.

Brad Buckley (18:31.864)
Yeah, absolutely. And how do we know a kid doesn't like it if they never experience it? And I think we've drifted too far away to say that, well, these are digital natives. These kids are entertained constantly, that everything needs to be very kinetic, and that subject matter must be contemporary. That is we are short selling, or I should say,

I'm not a stockbroker, but that is so short-sighted, if you will, sort of a short-sighted expectation. And then we do know that when kids are exposed to the classics, it kind of opens new doors. And it is a foundation of knowledge that they can build upon. they're classics because they're classics. They've stood the test of time.

Soren Schwab - CLT (19:04.088)
Hahaha!

Brad Buckley (19:32.632)
You know what I mean? You know, we've kind of gotten into what I call the edutainment world a little bit and all in the name of student engagement. And, you know, I do think that some of the reading struggles our kids have had, possibly because whole language has really been proven to not be the science of reading, you know, three-queuing, you know, where, you know, you're covering up a picture and coming up a word and have a kid look at a picture and try to guess. I mean, it just doesn't fit with the science of reading.

And so if you don't have, know, if you're intimidated by the material because you can't read well, well, of course you're not going to embrace it. And so I think all of those things are connected so you can sort of see the way the pathway, where the pathway goes. And we've just tried to change that pathway in Texas and hopefully we're going to get there. It feels like we are.

Soren Schwab - CLT (20:20.038)
Well, we're cheering for you all. think, too, and I'm a former English teacher. I was in a charter school. And I think sometimes, too, when we're not teaching certain books because we think, it's just too challenging for the students or it's just too hard. I always thought that was more a reflection on our ability to teach it well, not the students' abilities, right? Because they are capable of so much more. talked to one of my colleagues yesterday and he was at a public high school and he said,

that their teacher thought that Jane Austen, like reading Pride and Prejudice would be too challenging. So they read Pride and Prejudice and Zombies as their curriculum. And at first I was laughing, but then I mean, it made me sad, right? Because you're communicating to students, you're just not smart enough to read these classic pieces. They are. And so thank you for saying, no, our students are...

Brad Buckley (21:02.136)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (21:17.006)
able and we raise the bar, but we also provide the teachers with the materials right to make them successful.

Brad Buckley (21:22.104)
Yeah. Well, I can tell you, I've seen it with my own eyes in a classroom. you improve, when you increase the rigor, kids respond. They're more engaged, behaviors better. You see a team environment where kids work together. You have kids of all abilities in that room. It takes the stigma away and you see, you see one student helping another. You know what I mean? I saw no rolling of the eyes or snickering.

It was really this team of students and this great teacher that were really trying to get everybody on the same page and pulling for each other. I don't want to, mean, I don't know, maybe that, but I literally saw that and teachers will tell you, know, that, you know, and the other thing it does is teachers are like, I feel like I'm getting, I'm having success with my students. They're doing better. Outcomes are better. I want to teach again next year. The time where we have fewer, you know, fewer and fewer professionals coming into the profession and they don't stay as long.

Soren Schwab - CLT (22:14.818)
Yes, yes.

Brad Buckley (22:22.636)
You know, we need, in any profession, you need seasoned professionals that have been there, done that, that have had that time to have the experience in that profession to become masters of what they do. And that's, you know, I think great curriculum builds that. So you're getting all these benefits of it where we've, you know, we've gotten off track. Okay. Let's course correct. Let's get it back where it is. Let's listen to parents. Let's listen to teachers.

and then let's see what our kids can do. And I saw data yesterday in a classroom where high quality materials that had these foundational, this real foundational base to it, where the gains being made amongst all demographics, all groups is just, is really a game changer. So, you know, we are, you know, I think we have the right, you know, I think we have the right medicine, if you will, if we can just get everybody to take it, you know? So.

Soren Schwab - CLT (23:18.53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about testing. Obviously, we know here at CLT that, you know, the assessment is important. That's why we do what we do. We think there's a role for testing. And I know that the reason why a lot of classical schools and traditional schools, liberal arts schools have opted to do CLT is because, well, the test better reflects the curriculum, right? And oftentimes,

I think sometimes you can change the curriculum, but if the test is tied to standards that you're not following, right, then there's always a little bit of this compromise, this conflict where you feel like, we kind of have to teach the test because we want our kids to do well, but it's not really aligned with what we're doing. And so I'm wondering kind of in your estimation, kind of how does testing fit into your vision, public education, but also with some of these change standards.

Does testing have to adjust? Does it have to change? How do you think about that?

Brad Buckley (24:15.926)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (24:19.364)
I think it does. mean, I think if you're presenting a curriculum and you're patient of your lessons is what it is. The scope and sequence is what it is and the standards that are being taught. Critical thinking is critical thinking. And those questions, I think, they sort of usurp all curriculum, right? If you present a question in a way and you've taught the reasoning skills behind it and you've got the basic...

skills that you your comprehension level is appropriate. You can do that, but there are some things you just need to know. You know, you just need to know. I call it walking around knowledge because it's what you build everything else on, right? And so, you know, those things need to be assessed. But you have to make sure that your exam or assessment matches what was taught, right? Or it becomes really a disconnect. And I think it doesn't truly assess where our kids are.

Soren Schwab - CLT (24:59.032)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (25:18.646)
So there's really two reasons for that. And I do think that often state assessments, we sort of chase them in a way because accountability is built off of them and all that. I also think that it's important that we know where our kids are. And we spend a lot of time creating these standards. They're community standards. They're state standards. They're for educators, parents, community members, business, community.

It's an an elect our elected state board. So you know we want to make sure our kids are learning that and and so everything needs to you know needs to be aligned. But I do think there needs to be flexibility that's based upon the curriculum that kids are being being taught. And so you know, I think that's an important important thing for us to do because then we want educated kids right? We want to medicated and and and I think I'm not to be long-winded here, but I think as you see things.

Soren Schwab - CLT (26:04.846)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (26:18.826)
and districts embrace a more classic, classical type model, then assessments must reflect that. You know, for it to be a meaningful assessment.

Soren Schwab - CLT (26:26.338)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, Brad, I was at a charter school. was in Colorado. you know, and we had school choice, right? But I always felt like when it came to testing, we were so beholden to the Common Core standards, which we intentionally did not follow. But most of the most of the tests that were out there were aligned with Common Core. And so we're telling our families, well, we're you're sending your kids here for these reasons. And we teach this.

But then really the one thing that shows that we're successful in a way, right, that we had to use for validation that we do well is aligned with things that we really don't follow that might even be, you know, maybe ideologically not aligned. And so I always felt that tension myself. And it's easier to fix kind of in the private sector, right? Because a lot of legislation, is public schools have certain testing mandates, right? Private schools often do not. So I'm wondering, yeah, if Texas were to move more in a direction where they

you know, maybe implement more of the classic pieces, the logic pieces, having districts or schools, maybe even the choice, potentially the choice to have a nationally normed assessment that better reflects that. I'm wondering how that would work.

Brad Buckley (27:42.168)
Well, that as we move to what I call every tool in the toolbox for parents, what I think is I think those that educate our kids and parents, students, and then at some point, if it is state dollars involved, we need to have oversight of how they're doing. It needs to reflect the way they're being taught.

And we can agree that the skills that they're acquiring are valuable, right? And as you look at outcomes, if you can follow, it'd be interesting to see like, what is the, and I know it's complicated and I'm certainly not an assessment expert or a social scientist, but it'd be interesting to see sort of the end outcomes of students taught in a classical setting versus a more traditional curriculum and follow it. I know in my district, we have a,

it's called Providence Academy and it's a classically based program. And some of it's at home and some of it's, they meet I think two or three days a week. It's very unique. It's very innovative. And I do know, I mean, I know some of the kids that attended there and the foundations of what they've learned, it's just impressive. You know what I mean? The discussions that I've had, and I'm there as a veterinarian, but they also know I'm a politician.

and they'll get in a back and forth and want to debate and reason things and ask great questions. And so at some point, I think it also warrants, you know, what really is the best model? You know, lots of tools in the toolbox, but it is okay to say, you know what, this is better than that. To produce an outcome that gives that child the best opportunity for themselves, but also for our country, you know, and this world.

Soren Schwab - CLT (29:36.664)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (29:36.792)
I mean, we can get real deep, real quick, but that's fair enough to talk about.

Soren Schwab - CLT (29:43.982)
all both rise, right? I mean, it is, I think you're absolutely right. I think you're right. And I do, especially in a great state of tech.

Brad Buckley (29:50.68)
Look on college campuses over the last few months and tell me how much critical thinking is going on in some of that. You know, and again, I mean, so that's. It is, you know, and so let's you know, let's recognize that and and understand that education is a journey and it starts at home the minute they're born. You know, and you know, and we know that that there's a space there that's going to be for moms and dads and guardians and.

Soren Schwab - CLT (29:59.223)
Yep. Yep.

It was a warning sign. Yeah.

Brad Buckley (30:20.344)
And hopefully, and I want every child from this moment they're born to receive everything they need because that little brain is so receptive. And I oversimplify it, but you just want good things to be in there. Too many kids have bad things put in there, but it's all, there's all this capability. What do we do to make that happen and then build that? And, you know, I have a four-year-old grandson and I'm so proud of my daughter and son-in-law.

of the environment that they've been able to provide for him and how inquisitive he is and his knowledge base and his vocabulary that's growing just, it's because they do things with him. He goes to a good little preschool that's very fundamental, very classic base, really. And he's asking these questions at a young age and that's a great building block. But how do we scale that?

And how do we get agreement that that's what we need to do? Educate and let kids decide. Don't have the end in mind.

Soren Schwab - CLT (31:27.694)
Yeah, well, and we talked a little bit before we started recording on, know, there are some things that you can't, that a bill won't solve, right? And that's, having two parents that are involved in that, you know, read with the kids and, you know, that we can't change through a bill, but we can still culturally, right?

Brad Buckley (31:34.744)
Yeah.

Brad Buckley (31:38.795)
That's right. And, and, and yeah.

Brad Buckley (31:45.078)
Yeah, but you know what? I'll tell you what, when you engage parents and let them know they can be involved, it's a whole different story. So anyway, but that's.

Soren Schwab - CLT (31:52.984)
Yeah, Amen, Carter, Amen. Well, I got just a couple more questions. This has been so delightful so far. I do want to talk ESA for our audience. eyes of America are on Texas right now when it comes to school choice. ESAs are education savings accounts and many of our listeners have probably heard of Arizona.

Florida probably had the most kind of sweeping school choice legislation. I know everything is bigger in Texas, so when Texas does it, I'm assuming they're gonna do it a little bit bigger, but I don't know, but you're the right person to talk to. You authored an ESA bill last year. Can you tell us why you're a supporter of the topic of educational choice and what you hope to accomplish through those ESAs?

Brad Buckley (32:40.376)
You know what I tell people, know, because my background, we talked about at the beginning, a very public school oriented school board member, all that. it, you know, I am not a professional educator, but I am a parent and a grandparent. And I do know how challenging it is to raise kids and for them to get the education they need. And there's never been a more important time for parents to have every tool in the toolbox. And so when you can do that and give those options to parents,

And especially to parents that may not have the options that my kids had. My kids' options were all public school based, by the way. But in an area where there were all kinds of opportunities and we had the flexibility to, based on certain rules, to get them there at a certain time and pick them up and all the things required, it's not always the case. so, I've always, as a public school,

school board member, I never feared school choice. You'd mention it and people would recoil like, if we don't have the, if government's not compelling attendance, no one will show up. Well, that's not true. The vast majority of kids are gonna go to public schools because our public schools are, are wonderful. They offer all this, these different opportunities and this social environment and then there's the extracurricular and all these other things and they're provided in the private setting as well.

But public schools in Texas, it's a big darn deal. Rural Texas, it is the hub of the community. So, you know, I just don't see the threat. And I'm not sure why there's so much pushback. I think a lot of it is because what school choice really is is often not defined. You know, and it's a political issue that folks have tried to use as a wedge to say you either support public schools or you don't. What side are you on?

I tell everybody it's not an either or decision. You can support both. I'm about kids learning and being successful. And that is it. That is it. The rest of it, really, but I do know what it takes to get there. think school choice is one of it. I think pay your teachers more is one of it. think having great curriculum is one of it. I think an assessment system that's meaningful and accountability system that's meaningful is one of it. That's part of what we have to do.

Soren Schwab - CLT (34:41.474)
I love.

Brad Buckley (35:02.274)
to have this great system. And I think also the school choice discussion is, you we are a much more customized society. We buy things differently. We ask more questions. We have more options. We have more choices than ever. And it's time that we would have that in our school systems as well to understand, to give our parents one more tool in the toolbox, because it's their children.

Soren Schwab - CLT (35:32.664)
Yeah. Amen. How do you view the prospects of for school choice in Texas and upcoming legislative session? Feel confident?

Brad Buckley (35:32.856)
And that is it.

Brad Buckley (35:42.36)
I do. think, you know, like anything else, what keeps me up at night is crafting a bill and then passing it. And then also the implementation. Because when you have kids, the ability to really help children, you need to make sure you implement it properly. And it's a big change in Texas. And we're a big state. there's a lot of diversity. And we have school districts from eight kids up to 100 and

80,000. So how do you scale that? What's the proper rate of growth? Right now, I think there's 100,000 open private school seats in Texas across the whole state, 100,000 is it. So what demand will there be? How do you prioritize who gets it when you have limited resources? And then how do you evaluate it to make sure student outcomes and student growth is occurring so that policymakers can then make the investments they need to make going

But I do think it has a great chance of passing. then, you know, we'll have a tight bill that's, what I mean by tight is one that's, that we've, you know, run all the traps. We have the ability to implement it well and we have everything in place to make sure we have a successful program to help kids and families.

Soren Schwab - CLT (36:58.478)
Wonderful, wonderful. Thanks for sharing. Well, Brad, we have one more question, which is my absolute favorite. We ask every single guest, it's always the hardest one to answer, I think. Is there one book or one text that you can point to that has had just a great impact on your life? What would it be and why?

Brad Buckley (37:17.122)
my gosh.

man, there's so many. I guess maybe some of the James Harriot stuff. As a veterinarian, I grew up as a, I never wanted to do anything but be a veterinarian. My mom cut my sister and I off at 10 dogs that we had rescued one time.

We had cows and horses and all that. so, you know, that series is something that, you know, has always been meaningful to me because it was aspirational. You know what I mean? And it was just so aspirational. And man, I had so many great, great teachers. I know I'm leaving a lot out, but that one, it's just what I am. You know, I do the politics stuff, but I'm a veterinarian.

I love going to work every day when I get a chance to go there and I love the people involved in it and that's just what I do.

Soren Schwab - CLT (38:23.416)
Yeah. When we did the prep call with your team, Vanessa said, I would bet money that Brad is going to choose a bad therapy. I think Abigail Schrier. And you didn't mention it. I, you know, right. Totally.

Brad Buckley (38:34.24)
yeah. That's so contemporary. know, I was thinking more like what influenced me. Yeah, the Bad Therapy book is just amazing and just so thought provoking and so honest. You know, think, you know, what bothers me now sometimes is we don't get the opportunity, you know, to kind of challenge the status quo. I think that changed Tuesday.

after the election, think you need to do that. I mean, if we can't look at things the way we, if we look at the mental health state of our kids and then, I just hear it all the time. What's the mental health problem? It's a mental health problem. I've always said, I don't mean this flippantly, but if everything's a mental health problem, then nothing is, right? You really need to parse out what really is that and provide those resources. Cause if not, you'll never have the resources to cover it, right? It's too broad.

Soren Schwab - CLT (39:23.054)
That's good.

Brad Buckley (39:32.6)
So when you do that, but there are some really good thoughts in that book that really made me think as a parent, wow, I did some soul searching. The grandparent, some things I'd do different. I mean, so anyway, yeah, meaningful.

Soren Schwab - CLT (39:43.138)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (39:48.558)
I you're speaking my language. mean, CLT exists in a way to pick a fight, right? With kind of the progressive testing testing establishment and and we want a of brave heart and and you know, as long as you're picking a fight for the right reason, right? Because it's it's for the children, right? I think ultimately we're then it's okay to to to challenge the status quo a little bit. So Brad Buckley, thank you so much for for joining us today. This has been absolutely incredible. Brad is

Brad Buckley (39:55.542)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Buckley (40:02.71)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (40:17.358)
currently serving his third term in the Texas House of Representatives. And we really appreciate you and all the work that you do. Good luck in session here soon. And hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving and Christmas.