Friendship and Fruitful Disagreement | Cornel West and Robert George

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy and special guest co-host, CLT Chief of Staff  Katie Prefontaine, are joined by Cornel West and Robert George. Cornel serves as a professor of philosophy in Christian Practice at Union Theological Seminary and is an emeritus professor of African-American Studies at Princeton University. Robert is a professor of Jurisprudence and the director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University. The two discuss their deep bond of friendship, built on the basis of pursuing truth and fostering intellectual humility, explored in their recent book Truth Matters. They discuss how to cultivate these relationships and bring people to the table for these conversations. They conclude by examining the importance of studying both the progressive and conservative traditions for the flourishing of the individual and society as a whole.

Transcript

Jeremy Tate (00:01.643)
Folks, welcome back to the Anchored Podcast. This is going to be an Anchored Pod like none before. We have two of America's leading public intellectuals, two men who need no introduction, the one and only Dr. Cornell West and the one and only Dr. Robbie P. George. Dr. West, Dr. George, thank you for being with us today.

Robert George (00:22.187)
Thank you, Jeremy. It's pleasure.

cornel west (00:23.246)
We thank both you and Sister Kate for having us and we just thank you for your attempt to keep alive the best of the humanist tradition. It's very, very important.

Jeremy Tate (00:35.63)
We have co-hosting with us this well, this episode, special guest co-host, CLT Chief of Staff, Katie Prefontaine. Katie's gonna do a more formal introduction. I think our audience, Katie, knows these names, but it's good to remember how much these men have accomplished. I'll turn it over to you.

Robert George (00:37.371)
Amen.

Katie Prefontaine (00:55.565)
Yes, as Jeremy said, two people who do not need any introduction, but we do want to make sure that we give those introductions as they are incredible. So today we have Dr. Cornell West. He is a Dietrich Bonhoeffler Professor of Philosophy in Christian Practice at Union Theological Seminary. He is also a class of 1943 Professor of African-American Studies emeritus at Princeton University. He is a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard College and obtained his MA and PhD in philosophy at Princeton. Professor West is

Best known for his classics Race Matters and Democracy Matters. His memoir is entitled Brother West, Living and Loving Out Loud. He made his film debut in The Matrix and was the commentator on the official trilogy released in 2004. He has made several spoken word albums, including Never Forget, Collaborating with Prince, Jill Scott, Andre 3000, Good to Collins and others. In 2021, he won a Grammy along with Arturo O'Farrell,

For the year's best Latin jazz album, Professor West has a passion to share and keep alive the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr., a legacy of telling the truth and bearing witness to love and justice. We are also joined by Dr. Robert P. George. He is a McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and Director of James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University. He has served as Chairman of the U.S. Commission of International Religious Freedom and on the U.S. Commission of Civil Rights in the U.S.

Jeremy Tate (02:13.19)
Thanks for watching.

Katie Prefontaine (02:20.301)
President's Council of Bioethics. He was a judicial fellow at the US Supreme Court where he received the Justice Tom C. Clark Award, a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Swarthmore. He holds degrees of JD and MTS from Harvard University and the degrees of DPhil, BCL, DCL, and DLIT from Oxford University. He is a recipient of the US Presidential Citizens Medal and the President's Award for Distinguished Teaching at Princeton University. And he is a counsel to the law firm, Robertson and McElway.

Jeremy Tate (02:20.582)
Thank you.

Thank

Katie Prefontaine (02:49.343)
and member of the Council of Foreign Relations. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. It's a mouthful and it's just so amazing, such accomplished individuals to be able to talk to you today.

cornel west (02:58.47)
Thank you.

Robert George (03:03.081)
Thank you, Kenny.

Katie Prefontaine (03:04.445)
I would love to just start out. think as a reader of Truth Matters, I was just wondering this, and so I imagine other readers would wonder. You guys have such an amazing friendship, and I'm wondering if you feel like that was more born out of both of you having, wanting to hone your own skills and be aware of your weak points, and so you seek out individuals who differ from you so that you can become better intellectually. Or if what...

really was the root of your friendship was finding the similarities that you had so that you could have the trust to be able to have these really difficult conversations that you know you guys disagree about. I would love to just start out there if this is rooted in finding similarities or seeking out differences.

cornel west (03:53.766)
It's a wonderful question. You want to jump right in brother Robbie or should I? Well, I first just want to begin by saying it's always a blessing to be in conversation with my dear, dear, dear brother Robbie. He just had his mother's funeral, so we want to keep him in our prayers and him in our hearts and minds. And Sister Katie, this is time I met you, but me and brother Jeremy, we've been in trouble together.

Robert George (03:54.023)
think it's rooted. Sure, let me give it a shot, Cornell, and then I'll turn it over to you.

Jeremy Tate (03:54.578)
Thanks for watching.

Robert George (04:11.025)
I appreciate you.

Robert George (04:20.947)
Hahaha!

Jeremy Tate (04:21.151)
I'm sorry.

cornel west (04:22.438)
We've been in trouble. We've written together and we've worked together. And a lot of people wonder how it could be in fact that we've ended up working. We said, well, no, indeed that no school of thought, no ideology has a monopoly on the Socratic legacy of Athens or the prophetic legacy of Jerusalem that we can agree and disagree at deep levels and still revel in each other's humanity. And of course, that's what it is to me and Brother Robbie. Brother Robbie and I are much more than friends. We are very, very deep.

Jeremy Tate (04:27.93)
Enjoy.

cornel west (04:51.451)
brothers, we're family, and it will remain that way because our love is not reducible to politics. And our respect for each other is not reducible to me pointing out when he's wrong and he pointing out when I'm wrong.

Robert George (05:00.2)
Amen.

cornel west (05:08.807)
So I think it had to do with integrity. That Brother Robbie is a person of integrity, honesty, and decency. He says what he means, he means what he says. He's reliable and trustworthy in terms of where he is. even when we have our agreements, political agreements, ideological agreements, we've got a common humanity that we don't apologize for.

Robert George (05:09.053)
Yeah, very much so, true.

Robert George (05:31.217)
Amen. Yeah, thank you, Brother Cornell. Katie, here's my crack at your question. It is certainly true that Cornell and I share an openness to challenge, to criticism, to engaging with people with whom we disagree. But behind that is something more fundamental.

And that's the thing that our whole relationship began with and is based on. And that is a love of truth. Both Cornell and I want to get to the truth of things. That's why we went into this business. If we weren't dedicated to getting at the truth of difficult matters, of philosophy, of religion, great questions, if we weren't interested in getting at the truth of those things,

Jeremy Tate (06:04.881)
Thank

Robert George (06:23.975)
We go get respectable jobs selling insurance or cars or something like that. The reason we have dedicated ourselves to lives of scholarship and teaching is because we're dedicated to getting at the truth of things. And that creates a powerful bond, the love of truth, the devotion to truth, the recognition that truth is bigger than either of us, the recognition that we're fallible and therefore if we love truth, we have to be open.

Jeremy Tate (06:27.387)
Ha ha.

cornel west (06:28.453)
You

Robert George (06:52.925)
to criticism and challenge, because we're going to be wrong about some things. The intellectual humility that you've got to cultivate and maintain if you're going to be a genuine truth seeker is something both of us recognize the necessity for and do our best to try to cultivate and to maintain. And we support each other in that. So that's at the very foundation of the bond. It's what brought us together, the love of ideas.

the desire to get at the truth of things. And then of course, as we got to know each other better, began to develop really a deep friendship and brotherhood, I think it became clearer and clearer that the shared Christian faith we have, that shared commitment, that too is a very, very powerful bond to be whatever political, ideological, philosophical disagreements we may have.

We're grounded in the proposition that each and every human being, as a creature made in the very image and likeness of God, is the bearer of profound, inherent, and equal dignity. That's the Ur principle of all sound morality. And we share that. Now, of course, how that applies to particular cases, issues, of facts, that's often not an easy question. And reasonable people are going to come to different conclusions. And often, Cornell and I come to.

different conclusions, but we remain open to revising our conclusions under the weight of argument and evidence, subjecting them to rational scrutiny. So people sometimes ask, well, do you have trouble getting it? No, we don't. It's because both of us are committed to getting at the truth of things, and we see ourselves in a partnership, a truth-seeking partnership. It's West and George, partners in the truth-seeking business.

Jeremy Tate (08:35.525)
Thanks

Robert George (08:48.873)
So I'm not going to get mad at him for something he believes or get angry with him because he challenges something I believe. I know I could be wrong about these things. He knows he could be wrong about these things. We're trying to get at the truth of things. And that's the bond.

cornel west (08:48.994)
that's true.

Jeremy Tate (09:02.309)
So this for me was precisely the most powerful takeaway from the book. And the book actually hits home in a personal way because it forces you to rethink relationships. And I think I'm guilty many times of not working with people that I see differently and trying to get at the truth of things, Dr. George, as you describe, but of trying to persuade that I'm right. And Dr. George, in one of your, the whole book, of course, is a conversation between the two of you. And in one of your,

part, part of the stock to George, you make this case that it's not really like you're trying to persuade. It's that you're trying to get at the truth of things as a team together. And my question is when most folks are not doing this, it's, it's, you know, when we actually do come in contact with each other, folks right and left, um, it's more, can become hostile really quickly. Very few people take the kind of posture that we're trying to get at the truth of things together on the same team.

How do you go about it when the other person is not taking that posture, that it's a team effort? We're both going after the truth of things. How do you get there with someone from a relational perspective?

cornel west (10:17.451)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's that's a wonderful question though, brother I think you have to be jazz like an improvisation. I want to to find what the hook is in a person Someone who is already so polarized in regard to allowing you to speak your truth and invite you in you got to find something about their experience and in their life Where they are truthful?

You you're asking me, how's your mama doing? And how's your children doing? And tell me stories about them and how are they doing in school? Now, they have to engage in truth telling for that. Do you love your mama? Yes, I do. we got a truth teller here. Now, this is interesting. Now, you might be voting for Trump. we got a real fight there. No, you love your mama and I love mine too. So we got something really in common here.

Katie Prefontaine (11:09.773)
you

Jeremy Tate (11:10.97)
Uh-huh.

cornel west (11:14.532)
Let's continue this conversation in such a way that we see where the genuine overlap takes place and it does take place. And where's the where's the breakdown take place? It does break down. Brother Robbie, he's a follower of Thomas Aquinas. I'm a follower of Kierkegaard. You all remember that wonderful moment in the text from Dostoevsky's letter? If he has to choose between the truth on one side and Jesus on the other, he's choosing Jesus. Well, see, that's irrational. I'm going with Jesus no matter what.

But Robbie believes that Jesus is the truth in the way too. But if Jesus were not the truth in the way, Aquinas is going to have some trouble getting on the other side, but not the Kierkegaardians. We going with Jesus no matter how the truth talk goes. You see, so that in that sense, that's part of the rich tradition. It is not just of the West. We see it in Africa. We see it in Asia. We see it in Europe. It's a universal humanist.

Jeremy Tate (11:43.897)
Yeah

Robert George (11:54.973)
Right.

cornel west (12:11.399)
project of trying to engage in the quest for truth and seeking justice. But we should never be apologetic though about our commitment to truth talk, beauty talk, holy talk, goodness talk, all of those things that go into making us the human beings that we are.

Robert George (12:32.438)
I'm afraid that Brother Cornell sometimes despairs of me as a hopeless rationalist.

Jeremy Tate (12:36.497)
I love you.

cornel west (12:37.372)
No, no, no, quiet is he's got some room well quiet is just got room for what I'm talking about

Robert George (12:43.625)
And Cornell will point it out, so I'm going to point it out first that at the end of his life Aquinas famously said, looking back on all that he had accomplished in addressing those 10,000 questions, providing the best arguments on the competing sides and trying to resolve them by rational inquiry and deliberation and judgment at the end of his life, Aquinas having perceived the beatific vision of God, said of his work, it's all dross. It's all dross.

But I do believe in the power of the intellect and I do believe that we've got to trust our rationality, not uncritically, but the world is fundamentally intelligible to us. And I think that is the fruit of our godlike quality, of our being made in the very image and likeness of God. The world isn't necessarily intelligible to lions and tigers and bears or to frogs or amoeba, but it is.

intelligible to us rational creatures. Now, is it completely intelligible? No. And I think if Cornell and I go at it for a while, what'll happen is we'll force each other to modify our positions a bit. I'll have to admit to some absurdity in the universe that I want to resist initially. And Cornell would have to maybe admit to a little more intelligibility in the universe than big Kierkegaardian would think is there. But the title of the book is Truth Matters.

cornel west (13:52.314)
That's true.

cornel west (14:02.894)
That's true. No, you're right. You're right about that, though, brother. You're right about that.

Robert George (14:09.765)
a dialogue on fruitful disagreement in an age of division. So let's just look at that title. Our most fundamental claim, our most fundamental proposition, the thing that we do want to persuade our readers of is that truth really does matter. That there's not just your truth and my truth. Truth is relative. Truth is subjective. Or it doesn't matter whether you live in line with the truth or live in line with fantasies.

No, we believe that truth matters. We believe that it's fundamental to our flourishing. It's the kinds of creatures we are, rational creatures, creatures made in the image and likeness of God, sharing that divine spark, that rationality. It's essential to our flourishing that we seek the truth, that we prefer truth to fantasy, that we live in a way that is in touch with reality. So we're pushing a line here. We're pushing an argument. We want people to be persuaded of that. Now...

We also want people to recognize their own fallibility. The truth is bigger than any of us. None of us has all of it. All of us have, at best, a piece of it. And all of us right now are wrong about some things. We have some wrong ideas in our heads, some false ideas in our head, every single one of us. But if we love truth, if we're dedicated to truth, then we need to be willing to do what it takes to swap out as many of those false ideas for true ideas.

And here's where fruitful disagreement comes in. It's by the engagement of differences of opinion, by being open to being challenged and scrutinized, criticized, open to rational scrutiny, that we have any hope of swapping out some of those false beliefs for true beliefs. If we cut ourselves off from criticism, if we block ourselves from criticism, if we try to shut down the free speech of our critic and not let him criticize us.

then we're going to be reinforced in everything we currently believe. Now, we'll be reinforced in the stuff we believe that happens to be true. We're also going to be reinforced in the stuff we believe that happens to be false. And you know what that's going to make us? Ideologues, dogmatists. And those are the opposite of truth-seekers. Ideologues and dogmatists are the very reverse of truth-seekers. And we don't want to be that. And we don't want people to be that. So we're making a plea to people. Don't be that. Don't be an ideologue.

Katie Prefontaine (16:20.333)
Mm.

Robert George (16:33.201)
or a dogmatist. Now, as Cornell points out, when it comes to rational discourse and fruitful disagreement, it does take two to tango. If someone's unwilling to consider the possibility that he might be wrong, if somebody, as a practical matter, regards himself as infallible, at least on the issues that really matter to him, the deep cherished opinions that he happens to hold, the identity forming opinions he happens to hold, I don't know how you can have a conversation. So don't know how you can get any.

You got to somehow break through that. You need the recognition by both sides, both interlocutors, of the possibility that you might be wrong before you can get to that place where you're in a conversation both seeking to learn from each other, not just to preach, but to learn from each other and to deepen understanding. Even if you don't reach agreement, even if you don't end up in the same place, you will find that you will have

deeply enriched your understanding of the issue by engaging with an intelligent, truth-seeking person who wants to engage with you.

Katie Prefontaine (17:44.353)
I love the title. At first when I read it, I was like, matters. Is this what it's about? And then it made so much sense as I started reading. As I was reading, I was just thinking about, is the issue that people just don't care about the pursuit of truth or truth in general, or is it that just lacks so much intellectual humility that we cannot fathom we could be wrong or not know truth? And so I love just your guys' discussion there.

How do we get people to come to the table to have these fruitful disagreements for the pursuit of truth open up that we could be fallible? How do we get people to get to the table?

cornel west (18:22.004)
Well, I think it helps that people had your reading habits, which is to say to take the life of the mind very seriously. mean, you raised Shakespeare and Dante and Gerda and Toni Morrison and William Faulkner, you will be humbled. Or if you listen to John Coltrane and some Mozart and Beethoven and Chopin and Curtis Mayfield, we haven't even got to Hank Williams because I know my dear brother Robbie is there. A serious banjo player.

Robert George (18:27.689)
yeah.

Jeremy Tate (18:27.963)
Ha ha.

Katie Prefontaine (18:38.893)
Mm.

Robert George (18:46.491)
Hahaha!

Jeremy Tate (18:47.665)
Ha ha ha.

cornel west (18:51.047)
I mean, but we're talking about art, you know, at its deep and highest levels. But I think in addition to that, and this is why CLT is very important, that you have to have examples. You have to have fleshify, concretize examples of people who are committed to the life of the mind and all of the consequences. Anybody committed to the life of the mind is going to take a number of different political and ideological manifestations.

lot of different religious ones. Hindu brothers and sisters like Gandhi are gonna disagree with Christians like Robbie and myself. But is that kind of example we're living in a moment of such spiritual decay and moral decadence that it looks as if Thrasymachus wins over Socrates. It looks as if Pontius Pilate wins over Jesus. It looks as if Bull O'Connor wins over Martin Luther King Jr. But this is history. This is not just America.

This is who we are as a human being. We're a wretched species. We talk about this in the book, right? But we're also wonderful and we have possibility. We have potential. Do we have the courage to love? Do we have the courage to think critically? Do we have the courage to hope? Well, reading makes a difference. Reflection makes a difference. Wrestling with great art makes a difference.

Robert George (20:12.613)
yes, absolutely. You know, Katie, one of the things about human beings, of the constants about human nature is this. We tend to fall in love with our opinions, whatever they are. Another thing is we tend to be very tribal. We want to fit in. We want to be accepted. We want to be part of the group. And sometimes tribal membership is based

Katie Prefontaine (20:33.197)
Mm.

Robert George (20:42.471)
to a considerable extent on the sharing of opinions. And then when you dissent from those opinions, you place your status, your position in the tribe in doubt or even in jeopardy. And we human beings don't like that. We don't want to be excluded from groups that are important to us. But if you're going to be a truth seeker, if you're going to fulfill that critical part of your nature,

as a human being, as a rational being, then you're to have to risk being made an outsider because you descent from the tribe's opinion. You're going to have to learn to yield even cherished, deeply held, identity forming opinions when they cannot stand up to rational scrutiny.

Another way I sometimes put it, I put it in the book with Cornell, is that we human beings tend to wrap our emotions more or less tightly around our convictions. Now that's not bad in itself. In fact, in itself, it's a pretty good thing because unless we have some emotional investment in our convictions, they will just be bare convictions that don't motivate us to do anything.

You know, not just pursue great causes of justice and human rights, but even, you know, get the kids up and dressed and fed and off to school in the morning. It's one thing to think, what a good idea it would be to get the kids up and off to school in the morning. It's another thing to actually have the emotional investment in the belief that enables you to get the kids up, rouse them out of bed, get them to breakfast, dress them up, get them on, clean them up and get them off to school. And I'm for sure the same is true if we're talking about great causes of justice and human rights.

Jeremy Tate (22:09.243)
So.

Robert George (22:25.969)
So there's nothing wrong with emotionally investing in your convictions. You should do that. But if you wrap your emotions too tightly around your conviction, this can happen to any of us. We fall into dogmatism. We become ideologues. We wall ourselves off from criticism, which ensures that we will be locked into whatever the falsehoods are that we happen to believe at any particular point. And they may be

Jeremy Tate (22:37.241)
Thanks.

Robert George (22:55.185)
very, very tragic falsehoods, which is why we have to be open to challenge, even challenge to our deepest, most cherished identity forming opinions. We have to be willing to say, and this takes courage, Cornell stresses this absolutely rightly, we have to be open to the possibility that we could be wrong not only on the minor, trivial, superficial things in life, but we could be wrong on the big, important questions, the questions of

human nature, the human good, human dignity, human rights, human destiny, the great existential moral and religious questions. You need a certain kind of openness there. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a person of conviction. That doesn't mean you shouldn't act on your convictions. Cornell and I both act on our convictions. Cornell gets himself thrown in jail from time to time for acting on his convictions. And that's...

cornel west (23:47.383)
first phone call to bail me out his brother Robbie.

Robert George (23:50.279)
yeah, now I'm always there with the check ready to go.

Jeremy Tate (23:50.673)
Bye.

Katie Prefontaine (23:52.841)
No!

cornel west (23:53.825)
I said, no, I'm all right, but I appreciate the love. I appreciate the love though, brother.

Robert George (23:59.689)
You know, we have to be willing to make sacrifices for our convictions. So you can see that it's a kind of complicated story. You have to emotionally invest enough to be a person of conviction and to act for the sake of what you believe is right, what you believe is just, what you believe is true, and at the same time have an openness to the possibility that you might be wrong, which means a willingness to be challenged.

Jeremy Tate (24:26.937)
of that. Dr. West, you referenced a minute ago, Katie's reading habits, which is a fun CLT fact. Katie reads over 100 books a year in a company where people read a lot of books. And so we've had this debate from time to time, know, some of these giants that are dearly loved in the classical renewal movement, which is where CLT kind of lives and breathes. But many of these giants, maybe, you know, from Socrates, we could make this case or to Thomas Aquinas, that in their own day,

They were not really known as conservatives. Today, they're dearly loved by conservatives and maybe more so than by progressives. But in their own day, they weren't conceived of in that manner. I love to hear you each kind of comment on that, on how over time, as the tradition processes, whose work is going to stand the test of time. And I'm also curious, Dr. George, I love how you said in the book, Cornell,

as such a student of the conservative intellectual tradition, have you become equally more of a student of progressive tradition?

Robert George (25:28.979)
That's it.

cornel west (25:33.665)
Mm.

Robert George (25:34.675)
Well, I'll say a quick word and then turn it over to Cornell because he's the person whose opinion here is really worth hearing on this question, I'll tell you. I think it was George McGovern, Cornell, back in 1972 when he was running for president and he was being attacked by the Nixon campaign for being a radical and an extremist. And he said, you know what a conservative is? A conservative is a worshiper of dead radicals. The conservatives today praise Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

Jeremy Tate (25:59.459)
cornel west (25:59.69)
Oh wow that's interesting

Robert George (26:04.849)
Yeah, there's a certain amount of truth. There's a certain amount of truth and no question about it. But Jeremy mentioned to a point that I made, I'll say this for our viewership and listeners, a point that I made in the book and I've made often as Cornell and I've gone around the country, it's something that people, whether they're progressives or conservatives, don't know about Cornell West. There's a lot of don't know about Cornell West and a lot of people have lot of misimpressions about Cornell West. But let me tell you something you might not know about Cornell West.

Jeremy Tate (26:07.793)
Hmm.

Robert George (26:34.621)
There is no conservative scholar, including me, there is no conservative scholar in this country who understands and appreciates the conservative tradition of moral and political philosophy, as well as Cornell West does. If we're talking about Edmund Burke, if we're talking about Eric Vogelin, if we're talking about Leo Strauss, Cornell understands and appreciates the works of all of those figures.

and loves nothing more than to discuss them. You want a place where you'll always find Cornell West? That's at the Vogtland meeting held in association with the American Political Science Association convention every year. There are a of conservatives these days who don't even know who Eric Vogtland was. One of the most important conservative thinkers in the modern period. Lived roughly from the early 1900s. When did Vogtland die, Cornell? Probably in the 60s or 70s, yeah.

cornel west (27:11.943)
you

cornel west (27:31.311)
I think Bowlin died about night, well we got him right here though, we can ask him.

Robert George (27:34.809)
there he is. But you know, lot of conservatives these days wouldn't even know who he is. yet Cornell knows his work inside out. Cornell's not a... 1985, okay. So Cornell's not a progressive because he doesn't understand or appreciate what conservatives have said. He's a progressive despite the fact that he's taken on board.

Jeremy Tate (27:35.537)
Ha ha ha ha

cornel west (27:43.591)
Lord have mercy. 1985, 1985. No, but yes, but,

Robert George (28:03.741)
and appreciates the powerful arguments, but he sees more powerful arguments on the conservative side. Now, I'm in the opposite place, but I appreciate work in the liberal or left tradition in the same way that Cornell appreciates work on the conservative side. So for example, while I've made much of my career as a critic of the liberalism of figures like John Locke and especially John Stuart Mill, figures like that,

I have a great appreciation for their account. John Rawls, who was one of Cornell's teachers, a lot of my early work was really that the work that got me tenure and promotion at Princeton and so forth was largely devoted to criticism of John Rawls. And that's not because I think John Rawls was an idiot. He was the opposite of an idiot. He was a deep and profound thinker. I happened to come out in a different place. I think I see some places where he went wrong quite, quite crucially.

But I appreciate the man's many important contributions, and no one has caused me to deepen my thinking as much as Rawls had, with the possible exception of Cornel West.

cornel west (29:09.029)
Well, no, no, wouldn't go that far, my brother. But I remember spending those wonderful moments in John Rawls' living room with Aunt, his beloved wife, and he was a giant. my God. He was wrong about a number of things, but he was a giant, no doubt, no doubt. But Robbie knows that Vogtman has a wonderful line in the volume three of Order in History, I think it's about page 91, where he says, Gorgias is the death sentence.

over Athens and he was talking about Calicles and Calicles was and this is invulnerable language he was an intellectual pimp who would look you in the face and call for the murder of your mother tomorrow. Now that that's not just Stalin and and Hitler and company he we're talking about Athens and we're talking about what it means for might to make right and for

power to dictate morality and for character to be so flattened out that life is just simply manipulation and transaction and domination, you see. And Voglen, like the great Leo Strauss and like the great Goddarmer, who I was blessed to study with for a year, we can go on and on. These are just profound truth seekers, no matter where they came down politically. It's like Bruckner in classical music. He's deeply Catholic and

Conservatives, he sounds powerful. Beethoven's a revolutionary politically. He's deeper than Bruckner, but Bruckner is profound and his music is to be appreciated as a conservative Catholic. Beethoven, secular, Freemason, still got something to say in his music. And we can go to same thing. Zora Neale Hurston as our brilliant black sister, towering figure, conservative in so many deep ways.

different than Toni Morrison. my God, we got sister Toni here too. So that if we confine ourselves in the narrow categories of politics, we're gonna miss out on so much rich humanity and we're not here that long. But one last point about reading though, sister Kate, because reading is so crucial, but in so many ways, rereading becomes sometimes even more important.

Robert George (31:05.705)
Here she is.

Katie Prefontaine (31:25.069)
Mm.

cornel west (31:30.71)
You know what I mean? If you reread Plato's Apology, you reread Brothers Karamazov, you reread War and Peace, you reread Hamlet, reread King Lear, rereading was the man, rereading, go on third and fourth and fifth times. That's what Strauss, that's what Voglen, that's what so many of these powerful thinkers do, not just the conservatives, but the Sheldon Wollins, who was a great colleague of...

of Robbie and my dear thesis advisor who was deeply committed to Athens and Jerusalem legacies. was a deeply, what would you say Robbie? Left wing to the core.

Robert George (32:10.395)
yes, absolutely. He was very far to the left, but deeply appreciated the classical tradition. And it encouraged me in my work, even though he knew I was in a very different place.

Katie Prefontaine (32:24.653)
I love how you use the analogy of jazz. Jazz is an innately innovative genre of music, but it would have never been innovated had you not known the history and what had come before in music. We're kind of getting to this point right now in this conversation, but we'd just love to hear you talk a little bit more about why tradition matters, why classics matter, why do all of these thoughts matter, even if we do want to see change from where we are today, why should we look to these old voices?

Jeremy Tate (32:38.321)
Hmm.

cornel west (32:56.637)
Brother Robbie, you wanna jump in or should I jump in like this, Absolutely. Superb artist.

Robert George (32:59.059)
But let me just begin with jazz. course, I'm a bluegrass. I'm a bluegrass musician. As Cornell pointed out minutes ago, I'm a bluegrass banjo player born and died. Honestly, born and brought up in the hills of West Virginia. But, know, I

Jeremy Tate (33:11.121)
That was highlight of COVID, Dr. George. Every day you got on Twitter and you played bluegrass for us. It was like...

Robert George (33:15.165)
That's cool. I tried to keep people's spirits up. mean, how can you be sad hearing banjo music, right? So I was given us a banjo minute every day, 66 banjo minutes during COVID. No, somebody talk a little about jazz because I appreciate jazz. So take the most innovative contemporary jazz artist. You choose who you consider to be your most innovative one.

cornel west (33:19.359)
He he he he he he he he

Robert George (33:44.009)
If you sit down with that person, something you are very, very likely to hear, if you ask that person, well, who is your most important? Who most importantly influenced you? On whose work do you most rely? How did you get to where you are? You know what that person's going to say? Louis Armstrong. Now, Louis Armstrong sounds ancient. It doesn't sound nearly as complicated.

Jeremy Tate (34:12.465)
Thank you.

Robert George (34:12.969)
as contemporary, innovative jazz music. But what the most innovative players are relying on at the foundation of their work and their creativity is the work of a figure like Louis Armstrong. Turn over to my genre, to bluegrass. Bela Fleck is the most innovative contemporary banjo player by far. No question about it.

He came to Princeton, he gave us a wonderful concert a couple of years ago, and about halfway through the concert, when he gave a little homily, finally after playing a number of tunes, he talked a little bit about his music, his very first words in that homily were, I am a disciple of Earl Scruggs. Earl Scruggs, the founder of Bluegrass Banjo Playing. Someone whose work today,

by contrast to what you hear in Béla Fleck, would seem very basic, very simple, very conservative, if you will. But there is no Béla Fleck without Earl Scruggs. And for Béla Fleck to be Béla Fleck, he has to root himself in the work of Earl Scruggs. So that's just a musical example. We can apply the same thing to the intellectual life.

cornel west (35:39.868)
Absolutely. And I think one of the greatest examples in my own life has been this brother right here.

Robert George (35:47.795)
There he is.

cornel west (35:48.934)
T.S. Eliot, of course Robbie and I spent so much time talking about Four Quartets and Ash Wednesday and Wasteland and the essays on F.H. Bradley and so on. You all see that throughout the text because T.S. Eliot is somebody who understood he was living in a moment of catastrophe and that catastrophe was spiritual, it was political, it was economic, it was social and he had to fall back.

on the voices of the dead. Now the anthem of black people was lift every voice, now lift every echo. He was looking for voices to do what? To help him find his voice. I was just with Reggie Workman last night. He played the bass for John Coltrane, live in Village Vanguard in 61, in Africa, Brass in 61. He's 88 years old. We spent three hours together. We had a political event here in Harlem. And he was reflecting on

what Coltrane meant to him, Elliot falling back on John Donne, falling back on Dante, falling back on those thinkers that would empower him, but just not him, but for others to gain access to deal with the catastrophe. Well, of course, mean, history of black folks dealing with slavery, catastrophe, Jim Crow catastrophe, hatred, tear, trauma, catastrophe, how we're going to affirm our humanity.

and our sense of love, hope, and thinking critically in the face of catastrophe. We look at those great examples. Now, Elliot's gonna land in a place politically where I'm far removed, but I don't exist without Elliot, just like I don't exist without Martin King. I don't exist without Malcolm X. I don't exist without Reverend Cook, who baptized me in Shiloh Baptist Church. I don't exist without Mahalia Jackson. And at this point, I don't exist without Robbie.

I don't exist around Anahita. I want to get my wife in there too. But my kids. But all of these people have been poured into us to deal with deep crises. And you have these exemplary figures like an Elliott or Faulkner or Sheldon Wollin and so forth who help us, but we all have to do it in our own way. Our own voice, Katie's voice, Jeremy's voice, Robbie's voice.

Robert George (37:46.281)
You

Jeremy Tate (37:48.113)
Thank

cornel west (38:12.056)
distinctive just like fingerprints.

Jeremy Tate (38:15.601)
I want to give a special shout out to Brent Dickinson, the newest member of the CLT Board of Academic Advisors. We're honored to have you both, of course. And Brent, unlike the majority, of course, of our board members, actually, he would put himself on the far, far left and just drive himself as a communist Marxist anarchist. But he is a deep, deep student of the tradition. And he was the first to make the case to me that conservatives

and progressives really, really need each other to have a flourishing society. That there should always be folks fighting to maintain the very best elements of our culture, and there should be folks poking at what are those elements that we ought to fight to retain. I love to hear you both as a final question here speak about do we need both for a flourishing society, and if so, how?

Robert George (39:05.905)
Absolutely we do. And the way I've put it is that the health of our polity depends on there being at least one healthy party of conservation and at least one healthy party of reform. What worries me is we don't seem to have either a healthy party of conservation or a healthy party of reform. But we really do need them.

Jeremy Tate (39:30.747)
It is well said.

Robert George (39:35.643)
Sometimes the right answer is, you know, we need reform on this issue or in that area. Sometimes the right answer is we need to conserve what we've got and the calls for change or reformation are misguided. But our best chance at ending up in a good place where the genuine common good is preserved and advanced

is when we're in a situation where we've got a Gladstone and a Disraeli, when we've got leadership that represents a strong and healthy party of reform, but also a strong and healthy party of conservation. And by party, I don't necessarily mean just political party. mean an ideological or political movement, kind of, speaking, a school or tradition of thought.

cornel west (40:27.449)
Absolutely. But I just think that that variety is something that's so built into who we are as human beings. We never escape the challenge of the one and the many. When I was there in Charlottesville with some very, very sick white brothers, neo-Nazis and the Klan, with their guns and with their masks and so forth, and they coming at me tooth and nail, and somewhere I come, you call everybody brother. I said, because I'm a free man, brother.

Robert George (40:57.298)
Hahaha

cornel west (40:58.612)
And I said, God loves you just like God loves me. Then I got real evangelical. I said, Jesus died for you, man. Just like Jesus died for me. You choosing to be a gangster. I was a gangster before I met Jesus and now I'm a gang, a redeemed sinner with gangster proclivities. So that our humanity is exactly, and I say that in an evangelical way when people are coming at me. And that's why people upset when I say brother Trump, how can you call Trump the brother? He's your foe, he's your enemy.

Jeremy Tate (41:15.057)
You say that in the book. I love that line.

cornel west (41:28.463)
Yes, he is my enemy. Somewhere I read that you love your enemies. You stay in contact with their humanity because God loves them. And there were a time in which you were the enemy of God and God loved you enough to work it through. But it's also being true to ourselves though. And this is what is crucial, you see, that there's no, that when I walked by those brothers, they were listening to Motown. They were listening to black music.

Robert George (41:55.111)
You

cornel west (41:57.147)
So if they were true, they don't want to crush me when my folk helped produce, if not thoroughly produce Motown music. What are we talking about here, right? And this is true across the board. If you like Robert Frost's poetry, it's powerful. He's a right wing social Darwinian. But that poetry is powerful. Gwendolyn Brooks poetry is going to hit you hard, but she's radically left, just like that brother Brent in

So you have to be true to your own experiences. And when you're true to your own experiences, you are actually moved deeply by people who have a lot of different political views because that's part of life.

Jeremy Tate (42:37.995)
There's more than a thousand classical schools now, classical Christian schools, classical charter. I want to pass along the strongest recommendation to do this as schools. I think for seniors getting ready to go off to college, I can't think of a better book that I would recommend to think about how they're going to engage, often on campuses where folks coming from classical Christian schools are certainly kind of in a minority position. I'm wondering if you're optimistic right now.

I think things have gotten so bad. Maybe I think as you say, Dr. George, as bad as they've been since the Civil War in terms of our inability to speak to one another, to listen well. Have we hit rock bottom? Are you seeing signs to be optimistic about that we're going to recover some level of civil dialogue?

Robert George (43:26.089)
Well, hope is much more important than optimism. Hope is a virtue. Optimism is really at best a prediction, a sunny prediction. So I am always hopeful. We're commanded biblically to be hopeful. Hope is a virtue. It's one of the great theological virtues, faith, hope, and love. So yes, I'm hopeful. But I also think there are some grounds for optimism.

Jeremy Tate (43:34.235)
Ha ha ha

Robert George (43:52.915)
There's been something of a vibe shift, especially in the free speech area, the willingness of people to actually speak out when they descent from a tribal opinion rather than censor themselves, the willingness of people to be a little more open to hearing even their most fundamental, their most cherished beliefs challenged. That's good. Now, could that reverse again? Yeah, it certainly could.

Are we at rock bottom? No, it could be worse. We could fall into a worse situation as far as free speech is concerned. Not just as a legal doctrine. You're legally permitted to speak freely. I mean culturally where people are actually willing and feel that they are able to speak freely without being victims of cancellation campaigns or having their lives or careers ruined or their families attacked and things like that. So I think we're in a

pretty good place right now. I want to keep the momentum going in that direction. I want to take this opportunity, though, since you mentioned, Jeremy, the classical schools, to say that I now have enough experience over almost two decades. I've been in academic life for about four decades. For the last two, I've had students at Princeton from

classical schools, Christian classical schools, sometimes nonsectarian classical schools. And boy am I impressed. These students are extraordinary. Some of the very best students we get are from classical schools. Now in a certain way you would say, well, that shouldn't be surprising. You're challenging students with the best that has been thought and said throughout our history. Of course they're going to be great students.

But there's a certain prejudice against classical education. There's certainly a prejudice against Christian classical education associated with evangelicalism and so forth. And it's hard not to fall into accepting some of that prejudice. But boy, it disappears fast when you actually meet the students that I've met and have had the privilege to teach who come from classical schools. They are

Jeremy Tate (46:00.337)
Yeah.

Robert George (46:10.959)
off the charts good. And now they're, of course, going on to the great graduate programs and into wonderful careers. A lot of my own students go to law school. Some of my students from classical school backgrounds have gone on to the top law schools and then onto the top clerkships and clerked at Supreme Court of the United States and have gone into brilliant legal careers. the evidence is now in. The classical schools are a success.

Jeremy Tate (46:21.361)
Hmm.

Jeremy Tate (46:36.721)
Dr. George, think those words are gonna mean the world to so many heads of schools, folks that have given their life, their sanity, everything to bring this tradition to the next generation when it had almost been kind of snuffed out entirely.

Robert George (46:51.623)
Well, let me say one more word about it, which I hope will also be encouraging to teachers and administrators in the classical schools, the leaders of the classical schools and to parents. Not only are these kids exceptionally well educated, they have the correct attitude toward learning. They are not ideologues. They are not dogmatists. Many of them are conservatives. Many of them are conservative Christians. But they are open to being challenged.

They recognize they have something to learn from people who disagree with them, as well as perhaps something to teach those who disagree with them. That attitude of openness to learning and to following the logos and to following the argument when it leads, that's one of the best features of these young men and women from the classical schools.

cornel west (47:38.475)
And I think it's important to lay out the why these particular schools are having the impact that they're having because I think where we are in the culture, in the country, that spiritual sickness that I was talking about, that civic cowardliness and the rampant hedonism that these schools provide, these platoons, to use Burke's language, they provide platoons.

over against so much of the hedonism and over against so much of the narrow careerism and once you unleash Plato and Plutarch and Sophocles and Lucian on the world or when you unleash Amos and Esther and the New Testament on the world or you unleash King's letter from a Birmingham jail or you

all this unleashing of Virginia Woolf and so forth, and then it spills over. At Chilbe, we can go on and on with Gandhi and what have you in relation to John Ruskin and Henry David Thoreau, that even though at the moment it looks as if so many of the young folk are conservative Christians, they know in the end it's hard to be on Pasha's Pilate's payroll if you're a follower of Jesus.

So that critical energy, that Socratic energy is just there. And it's not containable. And that's one of reasons why education is always a battlefield, spiritually, intellectually, politically, and because we're so politicized, we miss out on the movement.

of spirit. remember Russell Kirk says at the very last chapter of conservative mind that conservatism is the regeneration of spirit and character, of spirit and character with its morality and spirituality. And see once you accept that, it's a whole new world with all kind of different political conflict and ideological conflict, but its character, its integrity, its honesty, its decency, its courage at

cornel west (49:52.956)
the center and that's a different level of living. It really is.

Robert George (50:00.073)
You know, Jeremy, in some ways, one might think that a book like our book, like a book like Truth Matters, the people who need it least would be students in the classical schools because they're already getting the stuff that Cornell and I are calling for. But at another level, it seems to me that it would be especially valuable for students in classical schools because it will be such a profound encouragement to them.

and it will help them to build on things they already know and it'll help them to understand the significance and importance of the kind of education that they are receiving. So I do hope it gets a wide readership among students in classical schools. And I say students as well as faculty administrators because the book, as you know, since you've read it, is pitched at a level where it doesn't presuppose that you already have a college education.

We have Adam Bellow to thank our publisher to thank for that in large measure because Adam required us to explain concepts or identify who certain figures are that we cite. If we cite Hegel, Adam said, okay, now tell the students who Hegel was and what he believed and why he was important. Or if there's a school of thought that Epicureanism or something like that, Adam made us explain

what that school of thought held. So it's accessible, certainly to high school students, especially to well-trained, classical school high school students. So I hope it gets a wide readership among them. I think it will be helpful to them and to their parents.

Jeremy Tate (51:43.633)
Awesome.

Katie Prefontaine (51:43.669)
I would love to finish up we always end the Anchor podcast with asking what has been the most informative or formative or influential book in your life. If you have one that's a little bit more geared towards fruitful disagreement, you can go that route as well.

Jeremy Tate (52:00.177)
The one book recommendation, that'd be great.

cornel west (52:03.941)
Wow, just one book probably, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. And we exclude the rich biblical text, I guess, huh?

Robert George (52:05.669)
Thank

Jeremy Tate (52:14.043)
We always say if you go to the Bible, you need to recommend a book to focus on.

cornel west (52:18.181)
Yeah

What do you think brother Robbie?

Robert George (52:25.798)
it's an easy one for me, Cornell, as you know. Yeah.

cornel west (52:28.657)
I think I have an idea what it is. The life transforming book.

Jeremy Tate (52:33.105)
What's he gonna say?

Robert George (52:34.057)
That's the life transforming book, the book that changed everything in my life, me on the track that I'm on, enabled me to discern my vocation as a scholar and a teacher. That book was Plato's Gorgias. It fundamentally transformed my life, made me think about issues for the first time in my life where I wasn't just echoing some sort of line that I'd picked up from the culture or from my tribe or my party or my group.

cornel west (52:36.453)
we going back to Athens here.

Robert George (53:03.209)
It was the work that made me see the importance of thinking for myself, indeed of thinking my way to conclusions, rather than just adopting my conclusions because, well, for tribal reasons essentially, or things like that. It was a liberating book, an intimidating one in some ways, when all of a sudden...

You have to start thinking for yourself and all of a sudden you realize you've got to put all your previous beliefs on the table, all the beliefs you currently hold on the table because you really haven't reasoned your way to them and you don't know where you're going to end up. Won't you subject them to those beliefs to scrutiny? So it was in a certain sense a terrifying experience, but it was also an exhilarating experience and it made all the difference in my life. So if you ask me the question, what's the most influential book in your life? It's an easy one, Plato's Gorgias.

cornel west (53:52.097)
Mm-hmm. I see it's interesting you go back to our pagan brother here, huh? As a Christian that's very important people need to recognize the the riches of different traditions outside of our own tradition That's why we always pluralized, know what I mean? You contextualize and pluralize because all of us are hybrids All of us have a variety of different traditions that have been poured into us if I were to go back to the text that

Robert George (53:57.128)
Yeah.

cornel west (54:20.3)
probably introduced me to the life of the mind at the highest level. would be in the bookmobile way out on the chocolate side of Sacramento, California. It was still kind of Jim Crow's. So it was hard to gain access to a lot of the libraries, but they had these bookmobiles used to go out to the black community. And I used to read all the books in the bookmobile. That's where that rereading comes in, says the Katie, is that I would reread out biographies of Einstein, reread, but the text that I was rereading more than anything else was Kierkegaard's journals.

Robert George (54:39.218)
Okay.

Katie Prefontaine (54:50.573)
Hmm.

cornel west (54:51.517)
And it was a Walter Lowe translation where you had a variety of parts from works of love. You had parts from philosophical fragments, parts from unscientific post-trips. And you also had the Kierkegaard's conception of what it really meant to be a human being and a Christian. But take seriously the challenges of Socrates and Hegel.

Jeremy Tate (54:52.283)
was that the laws of

cornel west (55:19.393)
the so-called pagan and secular thinkers. But as I grew older, it turned out to be Chekhov. And I ask every student to please just read his favorite short story, The Student, that we mentioned in the books, just two and a half pages. Just reread it about every six months just to make, keep yourself on this. Because it is about as profound as they come. And it's very much about a seminary student and

Robert George (55:26.48)
Yeah.

cornel west (55:49.793)
the past, present, and future connected, the centrality of tradition and the centrality of voice, and most importantly, the centrality of love, compassion, and humility in a world that's so cold and so cruel.

Robert George (56:08.691)
When Cornell and I have taught together, the text from Kierkegaard we've used is either or, which is powerful.

Katie Prefontaine (56:14.253)
Mm.

cornel west (56:14.623)
Yeah.

Robert George (56:17.385)
Another text that has been so influential with our students when we've done our teaching together is Sophocles Antigone. And we usually begin, I think in almost every case we've begun with Sophocles Antigone. You get so many of the important issues, the existential issues out onto the table. Now you're getting me going. Another one that has had such a big impact on our students is St. Augustine's Confessions. Everybody should read. And not only Christian, I mean everybody should read.

Jeremy Tate (56:21.393)
Thanks.

cornel west (56:25.213)
yes.

Jeremy Tate (56:36.091)
Peace.

cornel west (56:40.583)
yes.

Jeremy Tate (56:40.753)
Hmm.

Robert George (56:45.703)
Saint Augustine's Confessions. Gosh, and on and on, once you get us started here.

cornel west (56:47.1)
Nothing like it.

John Henry Newman had that impact. The idea of the university, who would have thought our students would be so hungry?

Robert George (56:54.119)
And that one surprised me, Cornell. When we selected that text, that time we did it in our seminar, when we selected that text, I was so afraid that the students would be put off by it, that they wouldn't really get into it because the language is so baroque and it seemed to be from another time, a time that's long past and another culture long.

long gone, but gosh, did the students resonate. It was John Henry Newman's book, The Idea of a University. Now, after the fact, I could explain it, after the fact, I could see by the students' reaction to it, that they were, it was having such a powerful impact on the students because it was making them think about the very thing they were engaged in now, getting a liberal arts education. What does it mean to be an educated person? What's the point of getting an education? So now I can explain it, but I was very nervous about using.

Jeremy Tate (57:18.897)
So that's a very fast way to do it.

cornel west (57:35.304)
Exactly.

Robert George (57:46.375)
that text. just wasn't sure that it would resonate with him, but my goodness, it did.

Jeremy Tate (57:51.057)
You share such a sweet story in the book where a student, I believe a girl actually came to belief, came to conversion as a new Christian through the class, through your conversations, and ask you, Dr. George, to be a confirmation sponsor. But you both went. I believe was a cathedral in New Jersey to be there and try New Jersey.

cornel west (58:14.948)
Yeah, Trenton, Trenton, you're right.

Jeremy Tate (58:17.393)
How beautiful. I was thinking about the integrated humanities program at the University of Kansas, where you had, know, the people, it wasn't necessarily the goal, but exposing them to the fire of the tradition, getting them to open their minds and open their hearts as well, led to these greater things. We are here with two giants, again, national treasures, truly, the one and only Dr. Cornell West and Dr. Robbie P. George.

The book is Truth Matters. It's a crucial read. It's a short read. It's a conversation. It's about 180 pages, but it reads quick and it is just so enjoyable. You get a sense on every page of your very genuine love for each other, your love for this tradition. So thank you both. Thank you, Katie Prefontaine for joining us for this conversation. This has been a real joy.

cornel west (59:11.276)
This is a joy for us. Indeed, God bless you all and God bless your precious family, but this is marvelous. It really is. You all stay strong.

Robert George (59:11.593)
Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Katie. Thank you, Brother Cornell. Bless you.

Katie Prefontaine (59:21.005)
Thank you.