Reclaiming Identity Through Classical Education | Michael Adkins

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy is joined by Michael Adkins, Dean of Academics and Director of the Lower School of Saint Agnes School in St. Paul, Minnesota. They discuss the secret to keeping Catholic education faithfully Catholic. They dive into misconceptions about the word “classical” and how its popular conception has changed over time. They also explore the identity crisis driving people to reconnect with the cultural heritage of classical education. 

Transcript

Jeremy Tate (00:01.624)
Folks, welcome back to the Anchor podcast. We have with us today.

One of our longest friends here at CLT, Michael Adkins. Michael, I think we met back in 2016. St. Agnes was an early, early, early adopter to CLT. think thanks for you and your love for this kind of education. Formerly, Michael is the Dean of Academics, Director of the Lower School and faculty member of St. Agnes School in St. Paul, Minnesota. He's taught English, history, theology, and Latin in elementary school, middle school, and high school.

for over two decades. And you look so young, Michael, too. And he currently works on curriculum development and institutional advancement. An educational consultant, public speaker, and retreat leader, Michael has expertise in curriculum development, school improvement, pedagogy, and classical liberal arts education.

This fall, will be teaching for Catholic Distance University's brand new master's program in Catholic liberal arts education. He holds a bachelor's degree in honors classics from Gustavus Adolphus College, a master's degree in Catholic studies from the University of St. Thomas, dear, friends of CLT as well, they're Minneapolis from the Catholic study center there. Michael composed his master's essay on Pope John the 23rd's apostolic constitution.

Veterinary recipient, end term.

Jeremy Tate (01:25.774)
and the importance of the Latin language and his dissertation was a mixed method study on classical education, which resulted in 110 item peer reviewed inventory of the key principles and practices of classical education. I think I was a participant for that and I enjoyed doing that. It was very extensive and very thoughtful. He published various articles on education, theology and several publications, including the Selator, the I can't pronounce that Michael, and the Bellarmine Forum, the new I can't even try it.

I'm not even gonna try. Michael, great to see you. Great to have you with us today.

Michael Adkins (02:00.384)
I'm so sorry you had to read that Jeremy. Thanks so much. And it's an honor to be on the CLT podcast anchored. So thank you.

Jeremy Tate (02:04.974)
You

Jeremy Tate (02:08.62)
Now, one of the things I love about podcasting, and we've been friends for almost a decade, and I don't know that I've actually ever asked you this question, but how did you discover this kind of education? Did you grow up in faithfully classically oriented Catholic schools? One of the things I love about this movement is most of us, especially our age, we discovered this somewhere along life's journey. What was that for you?

Michael Adkins (02:34.604)
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And so I'm a Catholic and I was a revert. We call it a revert, not a convert, but a revert to Catholicism and similarly the same kind of journey to classical education. So I went to a large public high school and I have to give to credit to one great teacher that I had at a large public high school. I 750 some kids in my graduating class. His name was Dr. Robert Helgeson.

at Apple Valley High School and he created a unique program for juniors. It was called the integrated, it was an integrated English and social studies joint double period class. And in that his own witness and his love for the Western tradition and just his way of telling stories really caught me. know, there's an expression that classical education is more caught than taught.

And he was a witness, an intellectual witness. He was also a personal witness. You could see his faith quietly come through this public educator, but I have to start with Dr. Helgeson at Apple Valley. And then also, I may have mentioned this to you before, Indiana Jones. The Indiana Jones movies were just captivating for me as a kid. And just seeing him navigate the ancient world and all of the cool things that

Jeremy Tate (03:52.59)
All right. Yeah.

Michael Adkins (04:02.252)
these majestic temples and buildings and monuments to their gods that lasted thousands of years. And the beautiful artwork that really always captivated me from a young age. And so I always loved art and archeology. And so when I was going into undergrad, I went to Gustavus, a little Lutheran school, a Catholic boy going to a Lutheran school. And it was all about studying the classics, like a classics department.

Jeremy Tate (04:08.226)
Yeah.

Jeremy Tate (04:28.782)
Mm.

Michael Adkins (04:29.708)
Greece and Rome and I was caught up because the woman I met with when I was signing up for classes, she said, would you ever want to go to Rome or Greece and go on a dig? immediately the Indiana Jones memories came back and I was like, I'm in, I'm going to be a class major. So that's the quick and dirty story to getting in the classics. And then of course I had a reversion to the Catholic faith after my mom had passed away. She was 49 and had a bout with cancer.

Jeremy Tate (04:42.766)
Yeah. That's beautiful.

Michael Adkins (04:58.896)
And after that, my brother had reverted before me. And so I had that, that sort of intellectual conversion to the classics in the Western tradition. I saw the value in it, but on the faith side, it took that event to really wake me up, to take my faith seriously and dig into it. And what I found in short order was after reading Scott Hans, the Lamb Supper, that these two worlds, the richness of my Catholic faith,

and the richness of the beauty, goodness and truth I saw in Greece and Rome, they go right together. And from there, I just, I love that those two worlds came together for me. So I'm just really blessed by that.

Jeremy Tate (05:36.59)
Wow.

Jeremy Tate (05:43.63)
Okay, okay, love that. St. Agnes, this school, so many of the Catholic schools that are super vibrant, many of them are very new as well. We've got the whole Chesterton network and there's 75 schools doing amazing work. A lot of these schools are new. St. Agnes is not a new school. This is a school that's been around for some time. And yet, it has national reputation for being passionately

vibrantly Catholic. How does this happen? Because many of the older, well-established schools are not necessarily bastions of orthodoxy and enthusiasm for the true faith.

Michael Adkins (06:27.862)
Yeah, that's a great question. And so to start, you had asked about this picture behind me. This is a musical score in the shape of a Gothic cathedral to Monsignor Schuller. And I have to recognize the many priests and great faithful Monsignors who were pastors here at St. Agnes, who we had a pastor who was at the Second Vatican Council and he was there and he knew what the council was about. And so he maintained that vision here in both the parish and the school.

always being faithful to the teachings of the church and the magisterium, and always maintaining a beautiful reverent liturgy. So you see that what we say all the time in classic allette is truth, beauty, goodness. And those things were held intact, even though our beloved school, after the council and the sisters, the school sisters in Notre Dame ran this place. Well, after we lost all the sisters, their orders shrinking and then lay people took over.

a lot of Catholic schools suffered through the same thing, that their schools became run by lay persons who were formed in the secular progressive vision of education. And so even though that happened to our school and we almost closed in the 06-07 school year, there was always that dynamism of fidelity, of the integration of the faith into everything. And so, you know, there's a great book out like the Catholic school playbook.

And we had the benefit at this.

Jeremy Tate (07:58.019)
Michael Ordner is a good buddy of CLT's and we had Michael and Kimberly Bagg on the podcast as well. Great to hear that you're a fan of that.

Michael Adkins (08:06.4)
Yeah. Yeah. Catholic school playbook. It's awesome. But that, that starting point where, where your school is at is, is, is for the parish in the school, you know, orthodoxy a question, is that a controversial topic? And so when it's not, and when you can order that rightly, that's the first springboard to reforming a school and bringing the classical or Catholic liberal arts tradition. And so we had that benefit. so when we were able to transform the school,

in those years, 06, 07, 08, 09. Due to that foundation of faith in connection to the parish, we were able to move a little quicker than a lot of older institutions. So grateful for that. And that's the witness of many teachers, administrators, and of course the religious and priests here at St. Agnes.

Jeremy Tate (09:00.174)
So Michael, you may have anticipated this question, the word classical, the word classical, I toured not long ago St. Benedict's classical, great Catholic school up in New Hampshire, and classical is built into the name. I've got a lot of friends who in the Catholic education world, they want to lean into it, but I know a lot who are...

even ones that are at great schools, you places like the Heights that seem very classical, but they don't necessarily use the language of classical. Can you offer us some insight into the use of this word in the Catholic education world?

Michael Adkins (09:35.466)
Yeah, you know, I like the word classical. You know, when I was doing my doctoral research, the word classical is primarily the one that you're going to want to use to understand the primary and secondary pre-K or K through 12 phenomenon that's renewing all over this country and around the world. But I do think it's a fair question in that I know that regionally the word classical carries more or less baggage for some people.

The word liberal arts in some reason, regions of this country has more baggage or less baggage. so I have tend to find that personally, I prefer the name liberal arts because the name has the end in mind. It's skills and knowledge for free individuals. Classical, of course, as your audience probably knows, is a term that refers to a period of time in Greece and Rome.

in which a lot of these great things of truth, beauty and goodness, literature, philosophy, art, they derive from a certain period. And we tend to think of traditional old things like classical music with the same kind of terminology. But for some people I have found over the years, the word classical, unfortunately is like a boogeyman that scares people away because as I noted in my dissertation, there's a lot of misconception about that term classical.

And some of it is if you're a classical educator, that means you're against things or you're reactionary and mad about the state of modern public education or this or that. so there's, there's, or, some people will say that classical is elitist. It's only for the rich prep school kid. Or some people say it's been used in the past history of our country to oppress other people and to protect the sort of class of people. It's racist.

Jeremy Tate (11:07.342)
Hmm.

Jeremy Tate (11:10.968)
Yeah.

Michael Adkins (11:29.644)
so on and so forth. You can debate about those points. I still appreciate the word classical, but I tend to in the Catholic world and I'm finding that the Catholic world tends to prefer generally speaking Catholic liberal arts or Catholic liberal education because it has the faith and the ends in mind. I will say, and this is the last point I'll make and I'll allow you to, and I'll give you a second to give your thoughts is.

Jeremy Tate (11:46.072)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Adkins (11:54.592)
My favorite word is probably not a very practical word. My favorite word for this model of education is paideia. And paideia in English would be translated as enculturation. Cause that's what we're all about. We're forming a type of person that we believe in as the ideal type of person. And we're handing them onto that, that young person, the things that we hold are the best truth, beauty and goodness, literature, art, philosophy, form of government.

Jeremy Tate (12:02.774)
huh.

Michael Adkins (12:24.554)
and we're handing those things on and we hope that a young person can appreciate them and be formed personally by them and their loves and affections. And then they take up the baton and hand it on to the next generation. So I think paideia in the abstract is my favorite word.

Jeremy Tate (12:39.334)
You've got to talk to David Goodwin and I'm guessing you probably have already in the Battle for the American Mind, of course, he unpacks the meaning of that word extensively. Our friends on the classical Christian side of the house.

Michael, I'm wondering if in the course of your research, what were the big surprises? I it seemed to me like you went into this not trying to prove a preconceived thesis that you were committed to defending, but really kind of getting at the heart of how people understood this. What were some of the shocks? I I felt like to me it was illuminating just answering the massive survey questions and really kind of forced me to think about things as well. What are some of big takeaways for you?

Michael Adkins (13:28.682)
I think one of the most shocking things is that being an American and in a country that's known for its pioneering spirit and pull yourselves up by your bootstraps in a country that constantly thinks about education and utilitarian terms, college and career readiness, that really one of the most shocking things was how deeply classical historical American education was.

until the early 20th century, late 19th century. Very biblically based, very Christian, and very classical. And I considered a great tragedy how that was really taken from us. Our birthright was, I think you could argue, forcibly taken by a few special interests from your typical student, whether rural or urban or suburban in our public schools, and the faith.

stripped away from us. So that's one big one.

Jeremy Tate (14:31.948)
Okay. How did you go about coming up with these particular questions?

Michael Adkins (14:38.176)
Yeah, I really committed to, I started my dissertation by opening up with all the, all the popular criticisms and misperceptions about classical ed. And I laid out all those questions and took them seriously with no bias. And then what I immediately follow it with is a history of Western ed, a quick summative history of Western ed. I said, well, let's just go back and read primary documents.

anthologies about the Western tradition and start there. And, and then from there, look at how the current model and recent historical models have been implemented. And that was the starting ground to laying out what I, again, I, I am not an absolutist in my research underlined it about what classical ed is. And as, as the classical ed renewal gets bigger and gains more momentum, I've noticed growing camps.

Jeremy Tate (15:31.022)
Okay.

Michael Adkins (15:37.032)
about it has to be this way or it has to be that way. And I hear the term neo classical educator, you know, and so I was setting about to, to define principles that I think anyone can start with. And then you look at your local community and determine what, are the most important for you, but it was a historical analysis first and taking serious the questions and criticisms. That was my launching pad.

Jeremy Tate (16:05.038)
So let me ask you this, if you could go back and record people, you know, on the street, 2019, just kind of Main Street America, 2019, what is classical education? You do the same thing in 2025, you know, post COVID. I think back to the first year of CLT, and we felt like we were always explaining a classical school, the concept of classical education. And now it's like everybody.

has a reference point that they didn't have five or 10 years ago. Has the popular conception changed? And if so, how has it changed? Is the way the average American might process what this thing is.

Michael Adkins (16:49.964)
That's a superb question. I'm so glad you asked it. You know, one of the most popular books out right now is Jonathan Heights, The Anxious Generation. yeah, and what sadly has happened in American society is in the last couple of decades, an increasing erosion about questions of identity, and then coupled with

Jeremy Tate (17:00.622)
It rocked me. So good. So powerful.

Michael Adkins (17:18.064)
technological advancements that tear us away from anthropologically how we're made. We're made to engage with nature. We're made to engage with each other as human beings. We deeply seek an identity of who we are in our family, in our local community, and in our country, our state. And what we've seen happen simultaneously without our knowing it until it came too late and COVID was this flash point that

kind of shook us up and woke us up was that people, when you abuse our understanding of patriotism in American history, and you just focus on the negative and the negative of the Western tradition and the sins of the past, and you pound on that without looking for the good and seeing our identity in that and the best of our tradition. And simultaneously, you diminish people's identity with various ideologies about the human person.

and confusing what a human person is, and then add the layer, the very powerful, shocking layer of technology, of the way of interfacing socially. You have a major identity crisis of young people in our country. Who am I and where do I fit in the world? And what is this nation that I'm a part of? And what is this tradition? And when you question all that, imagine being a young person and you have no grounding as to who you are.

That's a terrible thing. And so to your question, whenever I've given talks about classical education and I'm trying to help Catholic educators or educators in general understand it, as I say, my own generation was robbed of its birthright. But now today, even more so 20 years later from when I was in, 25 years after high school, it's even worse.

kids don't know who they are and they've been robbed of their identity and their birthright and an education that helps them understand who they are from their family to their local community, their state, the nation and the cosmos. Who am I and how do I fit in? So these questions of identity, technology, so classical education has become even more important. And last thing I'll say is shockingly,

Michael Adkins (19:43.368)
And like a, like a James Bond movie villain, Bill Gates recently said in some interview that like, honestly, it's like a bond. He's like a bond villain sometimes when he says things like AI is going to get rid of doctors and teachers. This is exactly what we do not need. Teachers are the high priests and priestesses of handing on the greatness of what our forebears have given to us. And so we're going to farm it out to tech.

I think not, so...

Jeremy Tate (20:17.422)
Speaking of AI, have to have these conversations every day, I feel like right now. In some ways, is forcing potentially a drive back to traditional education. I teachers can't assign essays at most schools across the country. mean, they can't possibly be savvy enough to know if this student wrote it or if these newest iterations of Grok or Chibbity or anything else wrote it. And in some ways, what that might ultimately be driving at is even

even a return to conversation, right? Socratic seminar. Where do you see AI creating both opportunities and challenges for classical educators?

Michael Adkins (20:59.916)
Well, first, what I would say is I've just been thinking about this in the last couple of days after that, you know, Gates quote, not to pick on him too much, but, uh, but you know, in the early 20th century, the people who transformed education into a progressive vision, it's like a parallel thing has happened in that first iteration. was like,

Jeremy Tate (21:08.462)
Take on them all you want, please do.

Michael Adkins (21:25.802)
We can't possibly teach kids grammar, logic, rhetoric, and the traditional things because the industrial revolution in the workforce and creating cheap products is too important. We've got to get rid of all that. I see a sort of parallel to today when people say AI is going to get rid of just, just as classical ed is exploding. And you see an opportunity for real reform called for, you know,

in the culture and broadly about the human person, these questions of identity, you have this, this new movement ready to answer the call. And then someone, just like in the early 20th century says, no, we don't need any of that because we have AI. So I see a parallel crisis and we should not fall for that trap, but AI in the classical world for us who are ahead of this question. I think you're absolutely right. This actually shows.

that we need authentic conversations. We need blue books back and handwritten essays. And you know, handwriting has been shown in studies that it actually helps develop the brain. So when we look at modern, the good of what modern education offers and modern education departments offer, educational neuroscience is a fascinating field that underlines the value of traditional modes of education, particularly classical pedagogy and content.

Jeremy Tate (22:26.594)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Adkins (22:50.528)
things like handwriting and getting away from screens. So I hope that made sense.

Jeremy Tate (22:58.606)
Michael, let's talk about books. We love talking about books on the Anchor podcast. What are some of the books that have been most formative for you and then what do you teach at St. Agnes that you look forward to most every year?

Michael Adkins (23:10.388)
books we teach at San Agustino. We, we teach the great books at our school. And I think one of the most beloved by our seniors is the Brothers Karamatsvoff. And I can't tell you how many seniors in, we, have a valedictorian, salutatorian, but we, we treat them traditionally. The salutatorian greets everyone at graduation. The valedictorian says goodbye at the end. We have a Palm Award and the Palm Award winners are the, male and the female senior who exemplify.

the best. They are a great student, but they might not be the best student, but they're a leader, they're a friend, they're an athlete, they're involved in the arts. And I can't tell you how many palm addresses have quoted in their Socratic seminar courses, the Brothers Karamazov. And that to me brings me great joy that we're doing something right. Personally, and I anticipated this question,

A couple books, two of my favorite books that I've been recommending to individuals in the last several years are this, this autobiography by father Gary and Goldman. He's a Franciscan. The shadow of his wings. This is an incredible book for those in the audience who've seen or read the book unbroken. This is unbroken on steroids and from a Christian. It's the most astonishing book.

Jeremy Tate (24:30.678)
Okay. Okay.

Michael Adkins (24:34.62)
I've ever read, autobiography ever. It's, it's, it's really amazing. so the, the premises, father Goldman is a seminarian world war two breaks out. And, he and his fellow seminarians have been forced into the SS by the Nazis. And what happens next is, amazing. So I highly recommend this book.

Jeremy Tate (24:57.486)
Wow, okay, I'm pretty sold on this. mean, Unbroken was, I thought, super powerful, loved it, and I thought the movie was okay enough. Shadow of his Wings, I'm gonna order this when we get off here. Fantastic.

Michael Adkins (25:09.664)
Yeah. I strongly endorse it so much that I say to people, if you don't like this book, you might not like yourself. So there's that. The second book that I'd love to share with your audience is by Rene Girard. I see Satan fall like lightning. Rene Girard is a Catholic philosopher, sociologist, anthropologist.

And it's his understanding of how all myth and all cultures all boil down to the same story. He calls it the memetic cycle of violence. And that as a Christian, he shows how all ancient myths that result in the scapegoating of individuals in society, Jesus Christ entered into that and transformed it. It's the most powerful. This book is short.

Jeremy Tate (25:56.782)
Hmm.

Michael Adkins (26:05.214)
And it's probably one of the books that I've never read passages and then stopped and went, wow, I need to reread that. This book is absolutely fascinating text. Rene Girard, I see Satan fall like lightning.

Jeremy Tate (26:13.1)
Wow, okay.

Okay, so Rene Girard and then under his wings, is that right? The shadow of his wings. I'm definitely wondering the shadow of his wings first. That sounds incredible. Again, we're here with Michael Adkins, Academic Dean. Michael, congrats on a dissertation completing that. I think a huge gift to the movement as a whole. How can folks get in contact with you? I know you're traveling the country, you're doing a lot of speaking as well. How can people reach out?

Michael Adkins (26:22.346)
The Shadow of His Wings by Father Garian Goldman.

Michael Adkins (26:48.832)
Yeah, you know, I'm involved with an organization called Adeodatus. Adeodatus is a Catholic classical liberal arts renewal, part of that renewal movement and their second annual conference is coming up here in June. But check out Adeodatus' website. Adeodatus is the son of St. Augustine and that's a great movement. You can also reach me at St. Agnes School.

in St. Paul, Minnesota, look me up on our website there. I'm also going to be soon teaching at Catholic International University and in their new Masters of Catholic Liberal Arts education, that program with the great Ann Brodeur. And so that's a way you can reach me. But I'd love to share with schools and talk to them about my research in classical ed. I've done a lot of consulting and

The goal of my work again was to create this 110 item inventory, which has been peer reviewed by experts in the field. And it's broken into five categories, five categories of classical education. For example, the aims and ends, the content of classical ed pedagogy, the constituents involved, so on and so forth. so, I have 110 items in those five categories. And what a school can do is use that inventory and say, Hey,

What are we doing really well and what are some things that we haven't thought about and we need to look more deeply into? I know a lot of classical liberal arts schools do the trivium really well, but don't pay as much attention purposefully into the quadrivium, for example. So I'm really happy and eager to share that research and would be happy again, connect with me at my email at stagnessschool.org.

Jeremy Tate (28:39.694)
Awesome. Michael, thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for your leadership at St. Agnes. It's an honor for us to have you on our academic board, of course, here at CLT. Thrilled to host you and your lovely wife, Cynthia, out for our 10-year Annapolis Summit coming up in October. And yeah, come back on on the Anchor podcast. Keep up all the great work.

Michael Adkins (28:59.296)
Really appreciate it, Jeremy. God bless you guys and all the work that you're doing. Thank you.

Jeremy Tate (29:03.512)
The bus.