The Renewal of Public Christianity in the West | Chad Pecknold

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy is joined by Chad Pecknold, Associate Professor of Theology at the Catholic University and author of Fire on the Altar: Setting Our Souls Ablaze through Augustine’s Confessions. They discuss St. Augustine as offering the structural blueprint for Western civilization and Christianity as the religious DNA embedded within it. They also dive into the term Christian nationalism and the strong, cultural desire to return to public Christianity. 

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Transcript

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (00:01.314)
Folks, welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. We have today with us a member of CLT's Academic Board, a man who for many of you needs no introduction, Dr. Chad Pecknold. Dr. Pecknold is the Associate Professor of Theology at the Catholic University in Washington, DC. He's an internationally recognized scholar of St. Augustine's theological and political thought. Pecknold has written a wide range of essays and books interrogating modernity with sharp Augustinian thought. He's the author of Christianity

Folks, welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. We have today with us a member of CLT's Academic Board, a man who for many of you needs no introduction, Dr. Chad Pecknold. Dr. Pecknold is the Associate Professor of Theology at the Catholic University in Washington, DC. He's an internationally recognized scholar of St. Augustine's theological and political thought. Pecknold has written a wide range of essays and books interrogating modernity with sharp Augustinian thought. He's the author of Christianity

and politics and the T &T Clark companion to Augustine and modern theology. Dr. Pecknold is also theologian in residence at the Basilica of St. Mary, the oldest parish in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Dr. Pecknold lives with his wife Sarah and their five children in their home in Alexandria, Virginia. Dr. Pecknold, great to see you. Thanks for being with us today.

and politics and the TNT Clark companion to Augustine and modern theology. Dr. Pecknold is also theologian in residence at the Basilica of St. Mary, the oldest parish in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Dr. Pecknold lives with his wife Sarah and their five children in their home in Alexandria, Virginia. Dr. Pecknold, great to see you. Thanks for being with us today.

Very good to see you, just not too far away from Annapolis.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (00:52.066)
Very good to see you, just not too far away from Annapolis.

That's right, that's right. We're so honored to have you on our academic board. Your work, mean, certainly one of the more influential scholars in the country, I think bringing the wisdom of the ancients, especially St. Augustine, to bear on our very...

That's right, that's right. We're so honored to have you on our academic board. Your work, mean, certainly one of the more influential scholars in the country, I think bringing the wisdom of the ancients, especially St. Augustine, to bear on our very

Complicated time that we find ourselves in as a nation right now. I'm wondering as we often do in the anchor podcast We could start off just with your own education growing up Did you grow up in in Christian schools Catholic schools public school? What was that like for you? Did you love school? Did you hate it?

Complicated time that we find ourselves in as a nation right now. I'm wondering as we often do in the anchor podcast We could start off just with your own education growing up Did you grow up in in Christian schools Catholic schools public school? What was that like for you? Did you love school? Did you hate it?

CLT Exam (01:30.926)
Yeah, I I think I grew up in Seattle, which is now thought of as a very progressive city and it is. When I grew up in Seattle, it was more normal. was a town run by a warehouse or lumber company and it was run by Boeing. Maybe it had some libertarian tendencies, but it wasn't a super liberal city. But then...

Yeah, I mean, I think I grew up in Seattle, which is now thought of as a very progressive city and it is. When I grew up in Seattle, it was more normal. was a town run by a warehouse or lumber company and it was run by Boeing. Maybe it had some libertarian tendencies, but it wasn't a super liberal city. But then...

As I grew up, I watched it become more liberal. I went to public schools. I did not go to private schools. was not homeschooled. My parents were not homeschool minded. I went to a public school at the time in which America was experimenting with busing. Bussing was a sort civil rights project of,

As I grew up, I watched it become more liberal. I went to public schools. I did not go to private schools. was not homeschooled. My parents were not homeschool minded. I went to a public school at the time in which America was experimenting with busing. Bussing was a sort civil rights project of,

moving people out of their neighborhoods and long distances from their homes in order to get some sort of racial parity. And I went in as basically a secular kid in public schools to in high school, I was in a program where I was bussed into a majority black school. And in order to get white kids into a majority black school, they brought in university professors to put on this very specialized kind of

CLT Exam (02:27.454)
moving people out of their neighborhoods and long distances from their homes in order to get some sort of racial parity. And I went in as basically a secular kid in public schools to in high school, I was in a program where I was bussed into a majority black school. And in order to get white kids into a majority black school, they brought in university professors to put on this very specialized kind of

program for smart kids. And of course the smart kids were from the white schools 45 minutes away. And so I went into these schools and as a sophomore in high school, we spent a whole year on the French existentialists. And the whole project of the French existentialists is to actually get you to let go of the mythology of God. And I was not prepared for that. I was not prepared.

program for smart kids. And of course the smart kids were from the white schools 45 minutes away. And so I went into these schools and as a sophomore in high school, we spent a whole year on the French existentialists. And the whole project of the French existentialists is to actually get you to let go of the mythology of God. And I was not prepared for that. I was not prepared.

I sort of was a secular kid who thought, who didn't disbelieve in God, but just didn't think about God very much. And so in high school, I encountered this very, very heavy kind of atheist existentialism that challenged my implicit faith, shall we say. And that's what really started me on my journey to thinking about Western civilization, what had sort of gone wrong that we had arrived at this place in which, you know, it was hard for people to believe in God.

I sort of was a secular kid who thought, who didn't disbelieve in God, but just didn't think about God very much. And so in high school, I encountered this very, very heavy kind of atheist existentialism that challenged my implicit faith, shall we say. And that's what really started me on my journey to thinking about Western civilization, what had sort of gone wrong that we had arrived at this place in which, you know, it was hard for people to believe in God.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (03:55.377)
and you had public schools that were taken over by lots of crazy ideas and were kind of dislocated from the theocentric heart of Western civilization. And so I came to Christianity through that experience, through doubt, through fear, through a sense of dis-ease that the world without God doesn't make sense. And...

and you had public schools that were taken over by lots of crazy ideas and were kind of dislocated from the theocentric heart of Western civilization. And so I came to Christianity through that experience, through doubt, through fear, through a sense of dis-ease that the world without God doesn't make sense. And...

And so I went to study theology in college. was a probably every brand of Protestant you can think of, every brand of evangelical Protestant you can think of, always looking for the best pastors, looking for the best preaching. And as I read more, was like St. John Henry Newman's phrase to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. The more I read the first thousand years of Christianity.

And so I went to study theology in college. was a probably every brand of Protestant you can think of. Every brand of evangelical Protestant you can think of. Always looking for the best pastors, looking for the best preaching. And as I read more, was like St. John Henry Newman's phrase to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. The more I read the first thousand years of Christianity.

the more I was sort of being drawn to away from my Protestant origins and we sort of, my wife and I kind of became, if you know John Henry Newman's pre-Catholic life, we kind of became high church Anglicans like John Henry Newman and then we eventually became Catholic.

CLT Exam (04:51.714)
the more I was sort of being drawn to away from my Protestant origins and we sort of, my wife and I kind of became, if you know John Henry Newman's pre-Catholic life, we kind of became high church Anglicans like John Henry Newman and then we eventually became Catholic.

Mmm.

And during that time, did this kind of love for St. Augustine, was that already taking root?

And during that time, did this kind of love for St. Augustine, was that already taking root?

Yeah, thanks for asking that. That was my first theological text, a little text by Vernon Bourke, was a Catholic philosopher at St. Louis University. He put together this little volume called The Essential Augustine. You can still get it. The Essential Augustine is great. It's like all these philosophical texts from the entire corpus of St. Augustine. So that was my first theological text and it just stuck. I never stopped reading Augustine.

CLT Exam (05:19.83)
Yeah, thanks for asking that. That was my first theological text, a little text by Vernon Bourke, who was a Catholic philosopher at St. Louis University. He put together this little volume called The Essential Augustine. You can still get it. The Essential Augustine's great. It's like all these philosophical texts from the entire corpus of St. Augustine. And so that was my first theological text, and it just stuck. I never stopped reading Augustine.

Amazing, amazing, that's so beautiful.

Amazing, amazing, that's so beautiful.

So, Gus, I mean, he's writing.

So Gus, mean, he's writing.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (05:58.062)
great collapse and kind of political uncertainty in the Roman Empire. And I think for that reason, you know, as we're in rapidly changing times, in some ways he's become more relevant than ever before. I wonder if you could talk our readers through St. Augustine's historical context a bit and kind of the bearing that has on our current moment.

great collapse and kind of political uncertainty in the Roman Empire. And I think for that reason, you know, as we're in rapidly changing times, in some ways he's become more relevant than ever before. I wonder if you could talk our readers through St. Augustine's historical context a bit and kind of the bearing that has on our current moment.

Yeah, I mean, think it's, I mean, everybody is returning to Augustine now, and I think people regularly, know, human society regularly returns to Augustine because he has something like the blueprint for Western civilization, and we kind of intuitively know this, so we keep returning to him over and over again for 1600 years. But he lived in a time which was kind of like our own battling between...

Yeah, I mean, think it's, I mean, everybody is returning to Augustine now, and I think people regularly, know, human society regularly returns to Augustine because he has something like the blueprint for Western civilization, and we kind of intuitively know this, so we keep returning to him over and over again for 1600 years. But he lived in a time which was kind of like our own battling between...

Hmm.

riverside jeremy tate raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0010 (06:38.189)
Hmm.

CLT Exam (06:49.23)
A Christian vision of the world and a pagan vision of the world which is very much like our time I think you know I mean we see that in America very much so we're kind of you know battling between a Christian vision and what some people call a post-Christian vision as if that were possible but he's battling between a Roman world that that was Constitutively pagan and had become Christian. I Constantine is a generation before him Constantine

A Christian vision of the world and a pagan vision of the world which is very much like our time I think you know I mean we see that in America very much so we're kind of you know battling between a Christian vision and what some people call a post-Christian vision as if that were possible but he's battling between a Roman world that that was Constitutively pagan and had become Christian. mean Constantine is a generation before him Constantine

makes Christianity the sort of licit religion of empire and Theodosius, emperor Theodosius does make the Catholic Church the sort of official religion of empire during his lifetime. And so he's got both dynamics, both a strong pagan pull. His father, Patrick, was pagan, converted on his deathbed to Christianity. And of course his mother, his very famous mother, was devoutly Christian.

makes Christianity the sort of licit religion of empire and Theodosius, emperor Theodosius does make the Catholic Church the sort of official religion of empire during his lifetime. And so he's got both dynamics, both a strong pagan pull. His father Patrick was pagan, converted on his deathbed to Christianity. And of course his mother, his very famous mother was devoutly Christian and prayed for Augustine for 30 years. And of course,

and prayed for Augustine for 30 years and of course he recounts that in the Confessions. And so he sort of marks the kind of journey, the journey of his soul is the journey from paganism to Christianity. And in some ways his story is powerful in the fourth century because his story is the Roman story.

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recounts that in the Confessions. And so he sort of marks the kind of journey, the journey of his soul is the journey from paganism to Christianity. And in some ways, his story is powerful in the fourth century because his story is the Roman story. It is the story of all of Rome, of how Rome is itself in transition. And I think returning to Confessions today,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (08:06.869)
It is the story of all of Rome, of how Rome is itself in transition. And I think returning to Confessions today, it helps us to think about that. And I think one of the reasons why I wrote the book was so that people could kind of not get the modern Augustine, the Augustine who's been made safe for this modern secular world that's kind of collapsing, but to get back to the Augustine that communicated to

Wow, yeah. Okay.

Wow, yeah. Okay.

CLT Exam (08:15.374)
helps us to think about that and I think one of the reasons why I wrote the book was so that people could kind of not get the modern Augustine, the Augustine who's been made safe for this modern secular world that's kind of collapsing, but to get back to the Augustine that communicated to people in the fourth century and to get really close to that Augustine and so

people in the fourth century and to get really close to that Augustine and so the book kind of does some ground clearing to help us to not read Augustine as a modern but to read him as he intended to be read.

The book kind of does some ground clearing to help us to not read Augustine as a modern, but to read him as he intended to be read.

And I'm holding it right here. By the way, beautiful.

And I'm holding it right here. By the way, beautiful cover and art.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (08:54.805)
Yeah, I'm so thrilled about this. The Mayes Press and Mayes Road Publishing did the best job. mean, that is the coolest cover.

Yeah, I'm so thrilled about this. The Mayes Press and Mayes Road Publishing did the best job. mean, that is the coolest cover.

So, yeah.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (09:06.435)
So fire on the altar, and then we have the sacred.

So fire on the altar, and then we have the sacred.

setting our souls ablaze through Augustine's Confessions. I always love to just ask people about kind of the experience of coming up with the title. Did you know when you started writing? Was that already in mind?

setting our souls ablaze through Augustine's Confessions. I always love to just ask people about kind of the experience of coming up with the title. Did you know when you started writing? Was that already in mind or how did that?

No, I started writing not with any clear title in mind. I modeled this book, I don't think I've told anybody else this, but I modeled this book in my mind on a book by Ratzinger called In the Beginning. And that was his Catholic, a Catholic understanding of creation. And it's very short, it's like four or five chapters. And it's very short, but it's like packs.

CLT Exam (09:22.646)
No, I started writing not with any clear title in mind. I modeled this book, I don't think I've told anybody else this, but I modeled this book in my mind on a book by Ratzinger called In the Beginning. And that was his Catholic, a Catholic understanding of creation. And it's very short, it's like four or five chapters. And it's very short, but it's like packs.

an enormous force of energy for the reader in 100 pages. I want to write a book like that. I want to write a book like Ratsinger wrote. Like let's just kind of, let's not waste people's time. Let's give them, and this is longer than that, but let's give them a really strong dose of a way into something that I know about and that was Augustine's Confessions. And so it only came maybe halfway through.

an enormous force of energy for the reader in 100 pages. I want to write a book like that. I want to write a book like Ratsinger wrote. Like let's just kind of, let's not waste people's time. Let's give them, and this is longer than that, but let's give them a really strong dose of a way into something that I know about and that was Augustine's Confessions. And so it only came maybe halfway through.

because I was continually thinking about, I knew that my argument was about trying to get away from a modern, interiorized, subjectivized view of Augustine's Confessions, where we read it like it's a romantic 19th century autobiography or something. And I knew that I wanted to tell a story about how the Confessions is really about taking us into a cathedral.

because I was continually thinking about, I knew that my argument was about trying to get away from a modern, interiorized, subjectivized view of Augustine's Confessions, where we read it like it's a romantic 19th century autobiography or something. And I knew that I wanted to tell a story about how the Confessions is really about taking us into a cathedral.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (10:48.093)
and drawing us towards the altar of the cathedral where there's pagan altars all around, right? And because in the Roman world, there's pagan altars all around. So I had this contrast in my mind between pagan altars that just surround Rome and the church and the church's altar and the difference between those altars that surround Augustine. And so the altar was the central idea. It runs through the book. And then the question is, well, what's on the altar?

and drawing us towards the altar of a cathedral where there's pagan altars all around, right? And because in the Roman world, there's pagan altars all around. So I had this contrast in my mind between pagan altars that just surround Rome and the church and the church's altar and the difference between those altars that surround Augustine. And so the altar was the central idea. It runs through the book. And then the question is, well, what's on the altar?

and it's fire on the altar. And then there's the kinds of fires that consume us on the wrong altars, the kind of fires that can hurt us, that damage us, know, social media, or just our own interior passions that go crazy, that can burn us up. And then the fire that Augustine confesses is of course the fire of Jesus Christ, the fire of divine charity, which is what they have.

and that it's fire on the altar. And then there's the kinds of fires that consume us on the wrong altars, the kind of fires that can hurt us, that damage us, social media, or just our own interior passions that go crazy, that can burn us up. And then the fire that Augustine confesses is of course the fire of Jesus Christ, the fire of divine charity, which is what they have.

I have not read the Confessions since 2007 or six on the subway to work in New York City. I was teaching at a New York City public school, but I read the Confessions, Red City of God then. And I've always thought of it really as a devotional, it's something you read for kind of a devotional. And so I hadn't had this larger.

riverside jeremy tate raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0010 (11:43.33)
I have not read the Confession since 2007 or 2006 on the subway to work in New York City.

New York City Public School, but read Confessions, Read City of God then. And I've always thought of it really as a devotional, it's something you read for kind of a devotional. And so I hadn't had this larger picture of it until getting into Fire and the Altar. And the book I read just before this was Patrick Deneen's Regime Change. And of course, your great friends and having a great conversation, I think a lot of folks are looking to both of you and thought leadership for kind of making sense of the changes that are happening to America.

picture of it until getting into Fire and the Altar. The book I read just before this was Patrick Deneen's Regime Change. And of course, your great friends and having a great conversation. I think a lot of folks are looking to both of you and thought leadership for kind of making sense of the changes that are happening to America, where this is coming from. But I'm wondering if you can speak to that, the kind of political dimensions of this as well. We're seeing, and maybe it's a boogeyman term some would say,

this is coming from. But I'm wondering if you can speak to that, the kind of political dimensions of this, you know, as well we're seeing and maybe it's a boogeyman term, some would say, the Christian nationalist term that's been maybe introduced and now embraced by a lot of folks, you know, on the right as well. We heard this in the commentaries of Charlie Kirk's funeral. I love some of your insights there as you're thinking through this national conversation.

the Christian nationalist term that's been maybe introduced and now embraced by a lot of folks on the right as well. We heard this in the commentaries of Charlie Kirk's funeral. I love some of your insights there as you're thinking through this national conversation.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (12:47.649)
Yeah, I I think, you know, we went through a period of American dispute over terms like Christian nationalism, integralism, et cetera. And what I think were, I think that was preparatory. I think those disputes were really preparatory because I think what's happening, and this is something I've been saying for a long time, but it's become much more clear to me, is we are religious by nature and we can't...

Yeah, I I think, you know, we went through a period of American dispute over terms like Christian nationalism, integralism, et cetera. And what I think were, I think that was preparatory. I think those disputes were really preparatory because I think what's happening, and this is something I've been saying for a long time, but it's become much more clear to me, is we are religious by nature and we can't...

We can't help but to be religious. And what we have seen is that we've seen the sort of insanity of woke religion on display everywhere. And then nobody can deny that it's religious. I mean, okay, it's faith religion, it's bad religion, but you can't deny that it's religious in nature. And so once you start to think, okay, we're going to have some sort of religiosity in America and the collapse of the Protestant mainline made

we can't help but to be religious. And what we have seen is that we've seen the sort of insanity of woke religion on display everywhere. And then nobody can deny that it's religious. I mean, okay, it's faith religion, it's bad religion, but you can't deny that it's religious in nature. And so once you start to think, okay, we're going to have some sort of religiosity in America and the collapse of the Protestant mainline made

It's religious. mean, it's yeah.

riverside jeremy tate raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0010 (13:28.144)
It's religious. I mean, it's yeah.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (13:33.251)
Yeah.

Yeah.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (13:45.645)
Impossible the rise of woke religion the walk the rise of all this insanity So if we're going to if we're going to have religion we we should prefer good religion to bad religion We should prefer true religion to false religion and and I think then just getting getting back in touch with that I think there's a strong desire to You know return to public Christianity the kind of this is

Impossible the rise of woke religion the walk the rise of all this insanity So if we're going to if we're going to have religion we we should prefer good religion to bad religion We should prefer true religion to false religion and and I think then just getting getting back in touch with that I think there's a strong desire to You know return to public Christianity the kind of this is

Public Christianity is distinct from personal Christianity. It's, you know, of course there's the sense in which it's important that we have faith and we receive faith as a gift from God. But there's also the bigger structural sense, and this is very much in Augustine's mind, and he lives in a world in which emperors are, you know, making structural decisions about Christianity. There needs to be some sort of public recognition of what is the religion that

Public Christianity is distinct from personal Christianity. It's, you know, of course there's the sense in which it's important that we have faith and we receive faith as a gift from God. But there's also the bigger structural sense, and this is very much in Augustine's mind, and he lives in a world in which emperors are, you know, making structural decisions about Christianity. There needs to be some sort of public recognition of what is the religion that

the public prefers and privileges. And we saw that at the Charlie Kirk funeral. The public doesn't want wokeism. The public, just the millions and I think maybe even billions of views for the memorial tell us that there's just this intense hunger not only in our own country but around the world for what is the religious DNA of Western civilization? Well, it's really not Islam. It's not some fake Gnostic wokeism.

CLT Exam (14:43.82)
the public prefers and privileges. And we saw that at the Charlie Kirk funeral. The public doesn't want wokeism. The public, just the millions and I think maybe even billions of views for the memorial tell us that there's just this intense hunger not only in our own country but around the world for what is the religious DNA of Western civilization? Well, it's really not Islam. It's not some fake Gnostic wokeism.

It's actually Christianity and we can debate about Protestants and Christian Catholics and Orthodox but I think there's this common sense, a common sense that we need the wisdom of Western civilization and that wisdom's gonna be Christian.

It's actually Christianity and we can debate about Protestants and Christian Catholics and Orthodox but I think there's this common sense, a common sense that we need the wisdom of Western civilization and that wisdom's gonna be Christian.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (15:32.92)
So you may remember this, and I share this in the context of having grown up from the earliest days of being taught from the time you can remember that there used to be no separation between church and state, and that was just horrible. You're just always taught that even from elementary school and all of this. And I remember the Reverend Wright controversy with President Obama. You remember this, and President and Reverend Wright had said some.

So you may remember this, and I share this in the context of having grown up from the earliest days of being.

to be no separation between church and state and that was just horrible. It's like the first year I was always taught that even from elementary school and all of this. I remember the Reverend Wright controversy with President Obama. You remember this and President and Reverend Wright had said some offhand things and President Obama when he was running.

offhand things and President Obama when he was running addressed the nation to kind of address his religious views and in that talk he said, what are our laws if not the expression of our collective religious beliefs? And I thought, wow, he just kind of said it, right? I'm like, at the end of the day, that, there's no, in some ways there's no separating.

Address the nation to kind of address his religious views and in that talk he said What are our laws if not the expression of our collective religious beliefs? And I thought wow he just he just Kind of said it right I like the end of the day like that that that there's no in some ways There's no separating these things, you know, and and nobody would say

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (16:28.398)
these things, you know? And nobody would say Barack Obama was being any kind of a Christian nationalist, but I mean, the laws that we have, that's ultimately where they come from, our understanding of natural law, you know, and our convictions shaped by religious beliefs. Wondering if you could comment there.

Barack Obama was being any kind of a Christian nationalist. I mean, the laws that we have, that's ultimately where they come from. Our understanding of natural law and our conviction shaped by religious beliefs. Wondering if you could comment there.

Yeah, I I like to think about the church and the nation as both kind of gifts from God. And they both have a common source in God. If you don't say that our political communities aren't a gift from God, then you just mean that there's some Promethean creation of man. And that leads you into some sort of war of all against all. So gratitude for God.

Yeah, I I like to think about the church and the nation as both kind of gifts from God. And they both have a common source in God. If you don't say that our political communities aren't a gift from God, then you just mean that there's some Promethean creation of man. And that leads you into some sort of war of all against all. So gratitude for God.

to the gift of a country is important. And I think all the founders understood that. And then also, that's to look very high, but then also look very, very low at, you you and I are both fully Catholic and fully American. Like those aren't separated things in us, right? We can distinguish them and we should distinguish them. They are distinguishable, but they aren't separable in

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (17:16.503)
to the gift of a country is important and I think all the founders understood that. And then also, that's to look very high, but then also look very low at, you you and I are both fully Catholic and fully American. Like those aren't separated things in us, right? We can distinguish them and we should distinguish them. They are distinguishable, but they aren't separable in us.

us and our souls and they're not separable in in a statesman right you can't separate the religious and the political in the souls which are governed nor can you separate them in those who are ruling and so I think you know the this what what the French Revolution tried to do was to exclude God what the American Revolution tried to do was not to exclude God right to exclude tyranny

us and our souls and they're not separable in in a statesman right you can't separate the religious and the political in the souls which are governed nor can you separate them in those who are ruling and so I think you know the this what what the French Revolution tried to do was to exclude God what the American Revolution tried to do was not to exclude God right to exclude tyranny

But was not to exclude God. The colonies which made up America all had their own professions of faith, which they, the states of the original commonwealths of the 13 colonies all had professions of faith. They all had professions of faith in God. And I think America has a very deep memory of this, that everything about America was a rejection of tyranny, but not a rejection of God.

But was not to exclude God. The colonies which made up America all had their own professions of faith, which they, the states of the original commonwealths of the 13 colonies all had professions of faith. They all had professions of faith in God. And I think America has a very deep memory of this, that everything about America was a rejection of tyranny, but not a rejection of God.

CLT Exam (18:44.2)
and that the faith that the constituent of states professed was faith in God and everything flowed from that.

and that the faith that the constituent of states professed was faith in God and everything flowed from that.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (18:55.246)
I had a chance to pass a couple of years on two different occasions to go visit and speak at a few of the different think tanks in Budapest. And it's been interesting to me as some folks have pointed to Hungary, pointed to Budapest as a good example for change in Europe. And then you hear the people on CNN or MSNBC and, you know, this, this, he's scary. He's this fascist theocrat or something. And you get there and I just wanted to pick a lot of locals brains from taxi

I had a chance to pass a couple of years on two different occasions to go visit and speak at a few of the different think tanks in Budapest. It's been interesting to me as some folks have pointed to Hungary, pointed to Budapest as a good example for change in Europe. Then you hear the people on CNN or MSNBC and this, he's scary, he's this fascist theocrat or something. You get there and I just wanted to pick a lot of locals' brains from taxi

Thank

Thank you.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (19:25.2)
cab drivers to wait waitresses and how these changes are actually taking place when you see things like no federal no income tax if you have four more children re beautifying the city to the way that it was before the commies came in and and defaced all of the buildings it seems like all of the actual policy adjustments

have drivers to wait waitresses and how these changes are actually taking place when you see things like no federal no income tax if you have four more children re beautifying the city to the way that it was before the commies came in and and defaced all of the buildings it seems like all of the actual policy adjustments

have been really good. as I was in Budapest, I was reflecting on why do people visit Europe? What's the fascination that Americans have? And I think it's because they find something incredibly beautiful in kind of what old Christian Europe built, right? I mean, if you get rid of that, like who's going, that's the main draw, that's the main allure, you know? And then I'm like, right, the one guy who's kind of defending old Europe is the guy who's getting attacked more than anybody else.

have been really good. as I was in Budapest, I was reflecting on why do people visit Europe? What's the fascination that Americans have? And I think it's because they find something incredibly beautiful in kind of what old Christian Europe built, right? I mean, if you get rid of that, like who's going, that's the main draw, that's the main allure, you know? And then I'm like, all right, the one guy who's kind of defending old Europe is the guy who's getting attacked more than anybody else.

I'm wondering that I know you've got close friends in the think tanks over there. Maybe what can be gleaned as we think about policy in the US in the coming years.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (20:16.256)
I'm wondering that I know you've got close friends in the think tanks over there. Maybe what can be gleaned as we think about policy in the US in the coming years.

Well, I mean, think, you know, the Hungarians have figured this out and partly through suffering. They figured it out through suffering. mean, in some ways I really resonate with, you know, the story of Hungary is kind of the story of my life too, because it kind of suffered from a certain secular atheism, communism that kind of devastated and didn't leave any hope for the future of Hungary. And then it went through a kind of limping liberalism that

Well, I mean, I think, you the Hungarians have figured this out and partly through suffering. They figured it out through suffering. mean, in some ways I really resonate with, you know, the story of Hungary is kind of the story of my life too, because it kind of suffered from a certain secular atheism, communism that kind of devastated and didn't leave any hope for the future of Hungary. And then it went through a kind of limping liberalism that

that also did not help Hungary. And it was not until Hungary began to sort of retrieve its own Christian past that it was founded by King St. Stephen of Hungary. had a great sort of, it had a really noble kind of history that was rooted in a public Christianity. And I think it's when they said, we shouldn't be ashamed of that. We should embrace that.

that also did not help Hungary. And it was not until Hungary began to sort of retrieve its own Christian past that it was founded by King St. Stephen of Hungary. had a great sort of, it had a really noble kind of history that was rooted in a public Christianity. And I think it's when they said, we shouldn't be ashamed of that. We should embrace that.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (21:23.147)
And it reminds me that the Hungarians are really good emblems of the idea that Christianity is the mother of material civilization as well as spiritual civilization. That there's this great sort of material civilization which occurs when you operate not on atheistic principles or on liberal principles, but you operate on Christian principles. And what's going to happen is that you're going to get a material flourishing as well as a spiritual flourishing. And the Hungarians have understood that.

And it reminds me that the Hungarians are really good emblems of the idea that Christianity is the mother of material civilization as well as spiritual civilization. That there's this great sort of material civilization which occurs when you operate not on atheistic principles or on liberal principles, but you operate on Christian principles. And what's going to happen is that you're going to get a material flourishing as well as a spiritual flourishing. And the Hungarians have understood that.

And they've understood that you know all of their family policies You know are about building up the family in a way that Strengthens the middle class that was Aristotle's great point in his politics very strong middle class You're not going to get a strong middle class without a family that's productive and procreative that's producing children that can you know occupy land and cultivate it

And they've understood that you know all of their family policies You know are about building up the family In a way that strengthens the middle class that was Aristotle's great point in his politics very strong middle class You're not going to get a strong middle class without a family that's productive and procreative that's producing children that can you know occupy land and cultivate it

and be productive for the country. And so everything they're doing is sort of consonant with really basic classical political ideas that go back to Aristotle, but then also consonant with Christian civilization. And it is fecund for them. They are generating. They are the ones who have health in Europe when everyone else is sick.

CLT Exam (22:22.08)
and be productive for the country. And so everything they're doing is sort of consonant with really basic classical political ideas that go back to Aristotle, but then also consonant with Christian civilization. And it is fecund for them. They are generating. They are the ones who have health in Europe when everyone else is sick.

Are these ideas getting picked up?

Are these ideas getting picked up?

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (22:51.946)
of those policies now being implemented in other countries as well.

of those policies now being implemented in other countries as well.

Well, mean, this is the hope is that Hungary will Hungary's ideas will triumph in Europe. But that's a big lift because Brussels is very much against these sort of retrievals of restoring classical and Christian principles for making strong nations. they want is, you know, the European Union was created to help the nations be strong without war.

Well, mean, this is the hope is that Hungary will Hungary's ideas will triumph in Europe. But that's a big lift because Brussels is very much against these sort of retrievals of restoring classical and Christian principles for making strong nations. What they want is, know, the European Union was created to help the nations be strong without war.

But what it became was a way of weakening all the nations in order for everything to be ruled from Brussels. And what Brussels wants is war with Russia. They don't want strong nations. And so my worry, and this is a genuine worry, is that many nations who are in a position to follow Hungary's lead are just too weak to do so.

CLT Exam (23:26.008)
But what it became was a way of weakening all the nations in order for everything to be ruled from Brussels. And what Brussels wants is war with Russia. They don't want strong nations. And so my worry, and mean this is a genuine worry, is that many nations who are in a position to follow Hungary's lead are just too weak to do so.

They're too weak in the face of a kind of globalist mindset that comes out of Brussels that that actually wants war rather than And so I think there are some countries You know

They're too weak in the face of a kind of globalist mindset that comes out of Brussels that that actually wants war rather than And so I think there are some countries You know

Poland is is maybe a country that gives us some hope with the latest election, but we have Donald Tusk Out there putting forward the the Brussels mindset of war so I think we we have a lot of work to do I think the United States has a lot of a lot of pull and a lot of influence and of course Hungary's our great ally in Europe right now and so I'm hopeful that that

Poland is is maybe a country that gives us some hope with the latest election, but we have Donald Tusk Out there putting forward the the Brussels mindset of war so I think we we have a lot of work to do I think the United States has a lot of a lot of poll and a lot of influence and of course Hungary's our great ally in Europe right now and So I'm hopeful that that

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (24:39.693)
America can help our help this movement and kind of retake Europe because we came from Europe Europe is in some sense our homeland too and and so we have a stake in in European countries recovering their own national sovereignty recovering their own Christian path

America can help our help this movement and kind of retake Europe because we came from Europe Europe is in some sense our homeland too and and so we have a stake in in European countries recovering their own national sovereignty recovering their own Christian path

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (25:02.83)
I love asking this question to a...

I love asking this question to a Catholic, but America is a country that has had a couple of profound, influential, of course, religious awakenings, the first and the second. And I'm thinking that the New York Times in the summer of 2024, released an article that for the first time maybe ever in American history, men were going to church more than women.

religious awakenings, the first and the second. And I'm thinking the New York Times in the summer of 2024 released an article that for the first time maybe ever in American history, men were going to church more than women. Many cultural implications there as well. Are we in the beginning perhaps of something like a religious revival in this country?

Yeah.

Yeah.

riverside jeremy tate raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0010 (25:28.107)
many cultural implications there as well. Are we in the beginning perhaps of something like a religious revival in this country?

Well, I mean, I think, you know, America is a very religious country. And my European friends always remark on this. And GK Chesterton said America is a country with the soul of a church, right? We're a very religious country. And in some ways you can make the argument that we have had many, many more great awakenings than we have officially announced them as great awakenings. And you can even say that the woke revolution is another great awakening, but in a very, very bad and toxic direction. We are...

Well, I mean, I think America is a very religious country. my European friends always remark on this. And GK Chesterton said America is a country with the soul of a church. We're a very religious country. And in some ways, you can make the argument that we have had many, many more great awakenings than we have officially announced them as great awakenings. And you can even say that the woke revolution is another great awakening, but in a very, very bad and toxic direction. We are...

Wow, okay.

Hmm. Wow. Okay.

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (26:05.673)
We actually go through these cycles. We go through these cycles of religious resurgence, of a resurgence of religious feeling. And the old tent revivals were famous versions of that, but I think we do it much more frequently than is marked in our history.

We actually go through these cycles. We go through these cycles of religious resurgence, of a resurgence of religious feeling. And the old tent revivals were famous versions of that, but I think we do it much more frequently than is marked in our history.

And the Charlie Kirk Memorial was a very, very good example of how easy it is to release those energies. It's very easy actually to release the energies of Christianity in America. And, you know, I think this is why the whole discourse over Christian nationalism is so fraught because on some sense, on some level we all know it's true that the country has kind of, you know,

And the Charlie Kirk Memorial was a very, very good example of how easy it is to release those energies. It's very easy actually to release the energies of Christianity in America. And, you know, I think this is why the whole discourse over Christian nationalism is so fraught because on some sense, on some level, we all know it's true that the country has kind of, you know,

Mm-hmm.

riverside jeremy tate raw audio jeremy's studio 0010 (27:00.888)
Mm-hmm.

the heartstrings of America are Christian.

the heartstrings of America are Christian.

Well, in my understanding, there hasn't ever been anything like what happened at this memorial where you have the Secretary of War, the Secretary of State sharing the gospel, sharing the truth of Christ incarnate, crucified and resurrected. I mean, is that totally unprecedented what happened there?

Well, in my understanding, there hasn't ever been anything like what happened at this memorial where you have the Secretary of War, the Secretary of State sharing the gospel, sharing the truth of Christ incarnate, crucified and resurrected. Is that totally unprecedented what happened there?

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (27:27.309)
I think you're absolutely right. mean that is unprecedented. We've had the impulse for the revival. What has changed is that this is now something like part of our official state apparatus. That is new. That's like Constantine's structural kind of public Christianity new. It's not new in history, but it's new in American history that

I think you're absolutely right. mean that is unprecedented. We've had the impulse for the revival. What has changed is that this is now something like part of our official state apparatus. That is new. That's like Constantine's structural kind of public Christianity new. It's not new in history.

But it's new in American history that we would have. I mean, we've had some things that come close to that. Certainly some procedural things that George Washington did or that Lincoln did, but not at this level. It's just unthinkable. I mean, it's literally unthinkable because there wasn't social media. But to have the President of United States posting

we would have, I mean, we've had some things that come close to that. Certainly some procedural things that George Washington did or that Lincoln did, but not at this level. It's just unthinkable. I mean, it's literally unthinkable because there wasn't social media, but to have the president of United States posting the St. Michael prayer and have it go viral.

the St. Michael prayer and have it go viral that you know millions and millions of people are are reading and therefore on some level praying the St. Michael prayer because the President of the United States the leader of the free world is posting it. I mean that's something you you can understand that personally but then you should also and I think this is what your question is you should also understand it structurally something structurally is changing. We we are a religious nation we that

riverside dr pecknold raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0011 (28:26.677)
that millions and millions of people are reading and therefore on some level praying the St. Michael prayer because the President of the United States, the leader of the free world, is posting it. I mean, that's something, you can understand that personally, but then you should also, and I think this is what your question is, you should also understand it structurally. Something structurally is changing. We are a religious nation, the religion that we are is Christian, and of course we can debate about

the religion that we are is Christian. And of course we can debate about the nature of Christianity, but there is a public Christianity that has reached the level of state apparatus that is new. I think you're right about that.

the nature of Christianity, but there is a public Christianity that has reached the level of state apparatus that is new. think you're right about

riverside jeremy tate raw video cfr jeremy's studio 0010 (29:08.396)
Incredible times. Again, we're here with Dr. Chad Pecknell, the author of Fire on the Altar, member of the CLT Board of Academic Advisors, and a good friend. Dr. Pecknell, thanks so much for your time. I'll make sure to get the book. And Dr. Pecknell, we look forward to seeing you and Sarah in a couple of weeks here for the Annapolis Summit.

Incredible times. Again, we're here with Dr. Chad Pecknold, the author of Fire on the Altar, member of the CLT Board of Academic Advisors, and a good friend. Dr. Pecknold, thanks so much for your time. I'll make sure to get the book. And Dr. Pecknold, we look forward to seeing you and Sarah in a couple of weeks here for the Annapolis Summit.

We're really looking forward to the summit.

We're really looking forward to the summit.